If the earth shifts on it's axis......

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JustSomeOldGuy
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If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby JustSomeOldGuy » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:53 am

I haven't checked in on that OTHER firearms forum lately (BrianEnos.com) or been reading the stuff USPSA sends me; had a wild thought this morning and am too lazy today to go research if it's already been covered, so I'm taking the easy route and asking here. :biggrinjester:

If the Hearing Protection Act passes, I suspect that suppressors are going to become more common/available/cheaper. And I suspect that (at least in the 'racegun holsters legal' classes) people are going to want to shoot their suppressed Glocks, 1911's, whatever in USPSA and/or IDPA competition.
Has there been any planning/forethought on the part of USPSA and IDPA about accommodating this if it comes to pass? :rules:

Then there's the nuts and bolts aspect. In competition we use shot timers that depend on a 'boom'. Now I suspect that a suppressed .38 Super open class gun will still produce a pressure wave that will operate the timer (and for me to continue to feel it on my sternum if I'm not standing directly behind the shooter). Is a suppressed 1911 45 acp still going to produce enough shot/mechanical noise to run the Pact/PocketPro/CED or whatever? :headscratch
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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby philbo » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:25 am

JustSomeOldGuy wrote:Is a suppressed 1911 45 acp still going to produce enough shot/mechanical noise to run the Pact/PocketPro/CED or whatever? :headscratch


Having tried this with suppressed 9/40/45's, I can affirm that very few if any of the shots will register with the timer.

I've neither seen or heard anything even speaking about the possibility yet in USPSA circles. I imagine it will only be addressed IF such legislative action passes allowing the use of suppressors for sport purposes, not before.

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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby Beiruty » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:35 am

So, it would right to start my company making heat based sensing timers ! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby treadlightly » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:57 am

JustSomeOldGuy wrote: Is a suppressed 1911 45 acp still going to produce enough shot/mechanical noise to run the Pact/PocketPro/CED or whatever? :headscratch


Call PACT and ask. Their first generation timers could be set to record a finger snap. They could also be set to record every .45 shot within ten feet, and ignore every .45 shot 15 or more feet away. 'Course, for that kind of discrimination it had to be consistent "bangs", so a Commander at 15 feet might still trip the shot detector when a Government model would not, assuming identical loads.

My guess is suppressed rounds will work fine.

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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby Jusme » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:01 am

Beiruty wrote:So, it would right to start my company making heat based sensing timers ! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:




Or impact sensors placed in the backstop. :biggrinjester:
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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby JustSomeOldGuy » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:03 am

optical sensor that only triggers on movement above +-500 feet per second?
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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby Beiruty » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:39 pm

JustSomeOldGuy wrote:optical sensor that only triggers on movement above +-500 feet per second?

Or I like to place in ring(instead of plastic glove with embedded motion sensor) on the trigger finger. Or place trigger pad pressure sensor. Pull you bullet out or not, you shot or not the timer is on...
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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby Beiruty » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:41 pm

JustSomeOldGuy wrote:optical sensor that only triggers on movement above +-500 feet per second?

Or I like to place in ring(instead of plastic glove with embedded motion sensor) on the trigger finger. Or place trigger pad pressure sensor. Pull the trigger bullet out or not, you shot or not the timer is on...
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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby C-dub » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:12 pm

Maybe I'm missing something here. There's a holster that can accommodate a suppressed handgun for these competitions?
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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:00 am

If this change comes to pass, there will be a lot of changes.

Gun makers will respond with suppressor equipped / ready models.

Suppressor makers will spring up everywhere. The increased volume of business will lead to more R&D and more innovations (smaller, more effective suppressors).

Gun ranges will eventually start having "suppressor only" bays, but will still require hearing protection to be worn at all times in these bays (for liability reasons). We will have 10,582 separate threads on this forum complaining about how ridiculous this is.

Holster makers will come out with models for suppressed handguns. Kydex holsters will be available first. Leather to follow. Although the "traditionalists" who prefer leather may also resist the change to carrying a suppressed handgun in the first place, so scratch that. You will likely only be able to find Kydex for the foreseeable future.

IDPA will start thinking about these changes way too late, and will then re-write all the rules, coming out with a new class for suppressed guns, along with one for "firearms" like the Mossberg Shockwave. While they are at it, they will also change all of the size requirements for each classification to "outlaw" a lot of commonly carried models.

I can't speak for USPSA, other than to say that they will do a much better job of adapting their rules to this new reality.

We will eventually settle into a new norm where a percentage of us carry, and/or compete with, suppressed handguns. Others will stick with non-suppressed models that are easier to conceal.
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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby Jusme » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:13 am

Soccerdad1995 wrote:If this change comes to pass, there will be a lot of changes.

Gun makers will respond with suppressor equipped / ready models.

Suppressor makers will spring up everywhere. The increased volume of business will lead to more R&D and more innovations (smaller, more effective suppressors).

Gun ranges will eventually start having "suppressor only" bays, but will still require hearing protection to be worn at all times in these bays (for liability reasons). We will have 10,582 separate threads on this forum complaining about how ridiculous this is.

Holster makers will come out with models for suppressed handguns. Kydex holsters will be available first. Leather to follow. Although the "traditionalists" who prefer leather may also resist the change to carrying a suppressed handgun in the first place, so scratch that. You will likely only be able to find Kydex for the foreseeable future.

IDPA will start thinking about these changes way too late, and will then re-write all the rules, coming out with a new class for suppressed guns, along with one for "firearms" like the Mossberg Shockwave. While they are at it, they will also change all of the size requirements for each classification to "outlaw" a lot of commonly carried models.

I can't speak for USPSA, other than to say that they will do a much better job of adapting their rules to this new reality.

We will eventually settle into a new norm where a percentage of us carry, and/or compete with, suppressed handguns. Others will stick with non-suppressed models that are easier to conceal.



You forgot the expanded manufacturing of aftermarket threaded barrels for nearly every make and model of firearms, so suppressors can be attached without the need to purchase a new gun. Along with rental suppressors at gun ranges, and possibly competitions.

I think this will be, instead of a money losing proposition for suppressor makers, a huge boom in sales. Since, for a lot of people, the cost of getting a tax stamp for each suppressor, is prohibitive, once that requirement is removed, the volume of sales will far outweigh any losses in reduced pricing.
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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby GeekwithaGun » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:12 am

Soccerdad1995 wrote:If this change comes to pass, there will be a lot of changes.

Gun makers will respond with suppressor equipped / ready models.

Suppressor makers will spring up everywhere. The increased volume of business will lead to more R&D and more innovations (smaller, more effective suppressors).

Gun ranges will eventually start having "suppressor only" bays, but will still require hearing protection to be worn at all times in these bays (for liability reasons). We will have 10,582 separate threads on this forum complaining about how ridiculous this is.

Holster makers will come out with models for suppressed handguns. Kydex holsters will be available first. Leather to follow. Although the "traditionalists" who prefer leather may also resist the change to carrying a suppressed handgun in the first place, so scratch that. You will likely only be able to find Kydex for the foreseeable future.

IDPA will start thinking about these changes way too late, and will then re-write all the rules, coming out with a new class for suppressed guns, along with one for "firearms" like the Mossberg Shockwave. While they are at it, they will also change all of the size requirements for each classification to "outlaw" a lot of commonly carried models.

I can't speak for USPSA, other than to say that they will do a much better job of adapting their rules to this new reality.

We will eventually settle into a new norm where a percentage of us carry, and/or compete with, suppressed handguns. Others will stick with non-suppressed models that are easier to conceal.


Its already here

The Maxim® 9 is the world’s first integrally suppressed 9mm handgun that is holster-able and hearing safe with all types of 9mm ammunition.

https://silencerco.com/maxim/
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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby CleverNickname » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:46 am

1. A lot of people already have pistol caliber suppressors. No one uses silencers in Open (the only division where they'd be allowed) because there's no competitive advantage.
2. The PCC division already specifically bans silencers. There's still no competitive advantage, but IMO it's more likely that someone would just bring their already-silenced PCC than an already-silenced handgun, because there's no need to fit the PCC in a holster.
3. Some silencers are still loud enough and/or some shot timers are sensitive enough that they'll often pick up silenced shots. But it's more likely that a suppressed firearm will fail to have its shots registered.
4. Minimizing reshoots is a good thing, and not allowing silencers helps this, because of #3.

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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby Beiruty » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:53 am

C-dub wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here. There's a holster that can accommodate a suppressed handgun for these competitions?

Yes, it is called racing holster. Please see Ghost Holster, or CR holster.
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Re: If the earth shifts on it's axis......

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:11 am

I just thought of something. Possible dumb question, but why aren't suppressed guns standard issue for LEO and military personnel? It can't be a lack of holsters. If these were standard issue, then there would be a huge incentive for holster makers to invest in R&D. And obviously holster availability is not an issue for long guns. It can't be legal restrictions since those don't really apply, do they (military personnel already have plenty of Class 3 weapons, and do police). The benefit seems obvious since you usually don't have time to put on ear protection before a firefight.

So is there a performance difference here? Or is it a cost issue?
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