Signs for the CHLer

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goose
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby goose » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:40 pm

doncb wrote:
Brick wrote:If I see signs prohibiting carry, whether to the letter of the law or not, I do not carry into that establishment. I don't think it's worth the hassle. I believe that property owners should have the right to prohibit whatever they want, correct signage or not.

See, that's the problem. We follow the law and they don't. I believe in property rights too, but businesses should have to follow the letter of the law just as we do. Would I carry past a sign like at Whole Foods that blatently doesn't follow the law? Absolutely. The 30.06 / .07 sign requirements were written into law for a reason. As I said in another post, if I carry past a Whole Foods type sign, I'm not breaking the law but they are.


Not to nit-pick, but they aren't violating any laws by posting invalid 30.06/07 signs. They are simply posting words that don't carry the weight of the law. Other than obscenities and the like, they can put any words they want on their windows and doors.
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Brick
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby Brick » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:03 pm

Businesses with improper signs are not violating the law. I respect your opinion. For me personally, I am not interested in causing an issue - win, lose or draw - when I am carrying a weapon. And I personally, don't want to be where I am not welcome.


thetexan
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby thetexan » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:19 am

Brick wrote:Hi. New to the forum. Have enjoyed reading various posts and decided to join. If I see signs prohibiting carry, whether to the letter of the law or not, I do not carry into that establishment. I don't think it's worth the hassle. I believe that property owners should have the right to prohibit whatever they want, correct signage or not. I try not to frequent such places because legally carrying where I am welcome is important to me.


The property owner DOES have a right to prohibit whatever they want (as long as it doesn't violate Federal or State discrimination statutes). The high courts have held innumerable times that the owner has a sovereign right to prohibit a person from coming on his property "for any reason or...NO REASON AT ALL"! But the assertion of that right must be done lawfully.

We all have many "rights" that are dependent on certain conditions being met? Dare I name a few?

1. Your "right" to travel freely does not extend to traveling inside my place of business if I don't want you there.
2. Your "right" (and let's not waste time on the "right" vs "privilege" thing) to drive on public roads depends on your having a license
3. Your "right" to travel freely is dependent on your not having been restricted by court orders.
4. Your "right" to fly an airplane off the coast of America is dependent on your filing a flight plan as per ADIZ regulations.
5. Your "right" to write a check for purchases depends on your having enough cash to cover the check.

Using your philosophy you would decide not to drive because you saw a sign that said "NO ONE FROM HOUSTON MAY DRIVE ON THESE STREETS"! Really? Would you just comply or would you consider this an attempted infringement of your legal rights?

Yes an owner has an absolute right to prohibit guns if he wants to. But that right comes with conditiional strings attached.

1. He must not violate Federal or State discrimination statutes.
2. He must make make notice ACCORDING TO LAW!

Just as we, if we wish to assert our right to carry, must do so ACCORDING TO LAW! Your right to carry should not be trivialized by an owner who believes that he may assert his right to restrict your right by means other than prescribed by law.

It matters little what the intent or desire or wish or preference or determination or mindset of the owner is. None of these personal ideas have any effect on my right to carry. It is only when the owner LAWFULLY NOTIFIES ME of these that they then become pertinent to my ability to carry. Not one second before.

We live in a world where everyone's rights are in constant conflict and where we must get along. This means our rights must be specified in detail with their extents and limits clearly enumerated.

And our right to carry a gun and the owner's right to control his property are clearly specified and time tested.

You might reconsider your feeling that you don't want to be where you are not welcome. I will go anywhere that I have a legal right to go to serve my intentions and business. If I need nails I won't let a hardware store owner's hatred of gun carriers deter me. I don't care about his dislikes. I need nails and what the owner wants, desires, wishes or imagines the world to be doesn't mean anything to me. I will not let that deter me from getting my nails just to try to make a point that I won't do business with those kinds of owners. You could take this much farther logically. What if you knew the owner did not like people wearing tennis shoes in his establishment but did not inform you of this legally (as if there were some legal mechanism of doing so)?

I will continue to drive in Houston, buy my nails, and enter into businesses despite unlawful attempts to stop me...

UNTIL I AM LEGALLY NOTIFIED OF THE SUSPENSION OF ANY OF MY RIGHTS ACCORDING TO LAW.

It is not too much to require the owner to abide by the very law we are required to live by. By the way, we do this hundreds of times a day but don't realize it because it isn't obvious.

Do not take this as any encouragement of "in your face" attitude or behavior. I detest that sort of thing. But be confident in your rights and exercise them lawfully, with grace, with kindness, and steadfastness, and above all Christian demeanor.

tex
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Alf
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby Alf » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:10 pm

You are also free to give your business to companies that don't post silly "Criminals Welcome" signs. Your choice. :mrgreen:


thetexan
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby thetexan » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:36 pm

Alf wrote:You are also free to give your business to companies that don't post silly "Criminals Welcome" signs. Your choice. :mrgreen:


Absolutely. The point, of course, is that it is my right to do so or not to do so at my pleasure...until when?.......

until I am notified of the lawfully permitted suspension of my right according to law.

The Lone Star Republic of Texas....What a country!!!!! :txflag: :iagree:

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Abraham
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby Abraham » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:31 am

brick posted: "If I see signs prohibiting carry, whether to the letter of the law or not, I do not carry into that establishment."

I read a little unintended (I think...) sanctimony in that statement. I hope I'm wrong...

Please read thetexan's post and reconsider your statement.

Many of us disregard bogus no gun signs without thinking we are disrespecting the business owner by remaining armed. If the business owner hasn't taken the time to put up a proper 30.06 sign he/she may be doing as a tactic to keep customers.

There's a school of thought that states some business owner post unenforceable no guns signs deliberately as it appeases the anti-gun crowd, fully realizing knowledgeable LTCers know they can legally remain armed and do their purchasing in that business as he/she knows bogus no gun signs can legally be ignored. Thus, the business owner satisfies a broad range of customers.

The anti-gun crowd isn't generally educated about bogus no gun signs and is happy.

The pro-gun crowd is happy too as they know they can walk past the bogus no gun sign with impunity and with no disrespect aimed the business owner.


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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby ImportedTexan » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:20 pm

Hey everyone. I’m new to the community here awaiting my license in the mail, and new to forums period. Please forgive me if I’m going against protocol in any way.

Having taken on such a burden of responsibility as everyone here has, and in being somewhat paranoid about doing the wrong thing, I was hoping to get some clarification and advice on signs currently posted.

I took my LTC class for the second time (first time in ‘06, never had the opportunity to turn my paperwork in) in October and my instructor didn’t stay on the 30.06, 30.07, or 51% signs too long. It was basically if you see one or both of these don’t carry, otherwise you’re good. He didn’t however tell us what the specifications for such signs are.

I’ve got the Texas3006 App installed and between that and this forum I’m seeing “non-compliant” and “invalid” being tossed around a lot. So, that leads me to my question as to what specifically valid/invalid signs look like? I.e. Materials the sign is printed on, color, font, size of the letters, languages, etc....

Again I apologize if I’m beating a dead horse and the answer to all my questions are a simple google search away. Personally I’d rather get my answers here as it seems there is a wealth of knowledge in the room.


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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby ImportedTexan » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:24 pm

Forgot to add, the majority of the pictures on the first page don’t load and are probably outdated.

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Flightmare
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby Flightmare » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:45 pm

ImportedTexan wrote:Hey everyone. I’m new to the community here awaiting my license in the mail, and new to forums period. Please forgive me if I’m going against protocol in any way.

Having taken on such a burden of responsibility as everyone here has, and in being somewhat paranoid about doing the wrong thing, I was hoping to get some clarification and advice on signs currently posted.

I took my LTC class for the second time (first time in ‘06, never had the opportunity to turn my paperwork in) in October and my instructor didn’t stay on the 30.06, 30.07, or 51% signs too long. It was basically if you see one or both of these don’t carry, otherwise you’re good. He didn’t however tell us what the specifications for such signs are.

I’ve got the Texas3006 App installed and between that and this forum I’m seeing “non-compliant” and “invalid” being tossed around a lot. So, that leads me to my question as to what specifically valid/invalid signs look like? I.e. Materials the sign is printed on, color, font, size of the letters, languages, etc....

Again I apologize if I’m beating a dead horse and the answer to all my questions are a simple google search away. Personally I’d rather get my answers here as it seems there is a wealth of knowledge in the room.


In order for a 30.06 sign to be compliant it must meet the following critera;
    Be in both english and spanish
    Appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
    Is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
    And the text must be identical to the following; "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by license holder with a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun";

In order for a 30.07 sign to be compliant it must meet the following critera;
    Be in both english and spanish
    Appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
    Is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property.
    And the text must be identical to the following; "Pursuant to Section 30.07, Penal Code (trespass by license holder with an openly carried handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a handgun that is carried openly"

30.07 applies only to open carry of handguns.
30.06 applies only to concealed.
In order to legally prohibit both with signage, both signs must be posted in accordance with their requirements.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.30.htm
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Flightmare
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby Flightmare » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:51 pm

As for 51% locations;

All alcoholic beverages retailers must post one of two firearms signs. One sign is intended for use on the types of premises where a holder of a concealed hand gun license may lawfully possess a concealed hand gun: establishments licensed to sell alcoholic beverages for off-premises consumption or, if licensed for sale for on-premises consumption, establishments whose alcohol sales are 50% or less of total gross receipts. It warns that unlicensed possession of a concealed weapon is a felony.

The second sign, the 51% sign, is to be posted on the premises of establishments where the possession of any concealed weapon is illegal. These are establishments that are licensed to sell alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption whose alcohol sales constitutes more than half of gross receipts. These signs have 51% in large red letters superimposed over the warning and the warning notes that possession of a concealed weapon on the premises is a felony.

As a general rule, a true restaurant will have alcohol sales that are less than 50% of gross receipts and would be expected to post the first sign. However, if its alcohol sales are greater than 50% of gross receipts, then it would have to post the second.


https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/sign_requirements.asp

Basically, TABC blue sign? Carry on. TABC red sign is a no-go for carry. That being said, many members here have found improperly posted TABC red signs, (Locations where less than 51% of revenue was generated from alcohol sales for on-premise consumption) and they have reported them to the TABC. TABC has been quite helpful in asking locations to remove improper signage.
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Pawpaw
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby Pawpaw » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:36 am

30.06 = no concealed carry (gunbuster optional)

Image

30.07 = no open carry (gunbuster optional)

Image

TABC red 51% sign. No carry in a location where alcohol is sold for on premise consumption.

Image
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Mike S
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby Mike S » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:23 am

TABC "Blue" sign (licenced carry is permitted):

weapons.pdf
(133.68 KiB) Downloaded 3 times


And here's the link to determine which sign an establishment should have posted:

https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/PublicInquiry/Status.aspx
Mike S.


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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby twomillenium » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:26 am

If the .06 sign is non-compliant, I carry past it and consider that the business knows it is non-compliant. It is there to make snowflakes feel better and at the same time allows the LTC holder to continue to carry. Very few gun control advocate know the difference between compliant and non-compliant. I did not mention .07 because it is obvious that they would ask you to leave and I consider .07 sign mere a dress code notice.
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ImportedTexan
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby ImportedTexan » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:07 pm

Thank you for your replies that cleared up quite a bit of questions I had. However, it also spurred more.

Can you clarify “gunbuster”?

Also, can any business print out a copy of a 30.06 or 30.07 and post it in their window in the proper formatting, or does it have to come from the state?

I’d rather ask stupid questions now than look like a fool later on. Thanks for your responses and patience.

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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby troglodyte » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:21 pm

The gunbuster sign is the picture of a gun with the red circle and slash over it.

Their is no officially sourced sign. As long as it meets the State's criteria it is considered legal.


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