Signs for the CHLer

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goose
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby goose » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:40 pm

doncb wrote:
Brick wrote:If I see signs prohibiting carry, whether to the letter of the law or not, I do not carry into that establishment. I don't think it's worth the hassle. I believe that property owners should have the right to prohibit whatever they want, correct signage or not.

See, that's the problem. We follow the law and they don't. I believe in property rights too, but businesses should have to follow the letter of the law just as we do. Would I carry past a sign like at Whole Foods that blatently doesn't follow the law? Absolutely. The 30.06 / .07 sign requirements were written into law for a reason. As I said in another post, if I carry past a Whole Foods type sign, I'm not breaking the law but they are.


Not to nit-pick, but they aren't violating any laws by posting invalid 30.06/07 signs. They are simply posting words that don't carry the weight of the law. Other than obscenities and the like, they can put any words they want on their windows and doors.
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Brick
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby Brick » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:03 pm

Businesses with improper signs are not violating the law. I respect your opinion. For me personally, I am not interested in causing an issue - win, lose or draw - when I am carrying a weapon. And I personally, don't want to be where I am not welcome.


thetexan
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby thetexan » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:19 am

Brick wrote:Hi. New to the forum. Have enjoyed reading various posts and decided to join. If I see signs prohibiting carry, whether to the letter of the law or not, I do not carry into that establishment. I don't think it's worth the hassle. I believe that property owners should have the right to prohibit whatever they want, correct signage or not. I try not to frequent such places because legally carrying where I am welcome is important to me.


The property owner DOES have a right to prohibit whatever they want (as long as it doesn't violate Federal or State discrimination statutes). The high courts have held innumerable times that the owner has a sovereign right to prohibit a person from coming on his property "for any reason or...NO REASON AT ALL"! But the assertion of that right must be done lawfully.

We all have many "rights" that are dependent on certain conditions being met? Dare I name a few?

1. Your "right" to travel freely does not extend to traveling inside my place of business if I don't want you there.
2. Your "right" (and let's not waste time on the "right" vs "privilege" thing) to drive on public roads depends on your having a license
3. Your "right" to travel freely is dependent on your not having been restricted by court orders.
4. Your "right" to fly an airplane off the coast of America is dependent on your filing a flight plan as per ADIZ regulations.
5. Your "right" to write a check for purchases depends on your having enough cash to cover the check.

Using your philosophy you would decide not to drive because you saw a sign that said "NO ONE FROM HOUSTON MAY DRIVE ON THESE STREETS"! Really? Would you just comply or would you consider this an attempted infringement of your legal rights?

Yes an owner has an absolute right to prohibit guns if he wants to. But that right comes with conditiional strings attached.

1. He must not violate Federal or State discrimination statutes.
2. He must make make notice ACCORDING TO LAW!

Just as we, if we wish to assert our right to carry, must do so ACCORDING TO LAW! Your right to carry should not be trivialized by an owner who believes that he may assert his right to restrict your right by means other than prescribed by law.

It matters little what the intent or desire or wish or preference or determination or mindset of the owner is. None of these personal ideas have any effect on my right to carry. It is only when the owner LAWFULLY NOTIFIES ME of these that they then become pertinent to my ability to carry. Not one second before.

We live in a world where everyone's rights are in constant conflict and where we must get along. This means our rights must be specified in detail with their extents and limits clearly enumerated.

And our right to carry a gun and the owner's right to control his property are clearly specified and time tested.

You might reconsider your feeling that you don't want to be where you are not welcome. I will go anywhere that I have a legal right to go to serve my intentions and business. If I need nails I won't let a hardware store owner's hatred of gun carriers deter me. I don't care about his dislikes. I need nails and what the owner wants, desires, wishes or imagines the world to be doesn't mean anything to me. I will not let that deter me from getting my nails just to try to make a point that I won't do business with those kinds of owners. You could take this much farther logically. What if you knew the owner did not like people wearing tennis shoes in his establishment but did not inform you of this legally (as if there were some legal mechanism of doing so)?

I will continue to drive in Houston, buy my nails, and enter into businesses despite unlawful attempts to stop me...

UNTIL I AM LEGALLY NOTIFIED OF THE SUSPENSION OF ANY OF MY RIGHTS ACCORDING TO LAW.

It is not too much to require the owner to abide by the very law we are required to live by. By the way, we do this hundreds of times a day but don't realize it because it isn't obvious.

Do not take this as any encouragement of "in your face" attitude or behavior. I detest that sort of thing. But be confident in your rights and exercise them lawfully, with grace, with kindness, and steadfastness, and above all Christian demeanor.

tex
Texas LTC Instructor, NRA Pistol Instructor, CFI, CFII, MEI Instructor Pilot


Alf
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby Alf » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:10 pm

You are also free to give your business to companies that don't post silly "Criminals Welcome" signs. Your choice. :mrgreen:


thetexan
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby thetexan » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:36 pm

Alf wrote:You are also free to give your business to companies that don't post silly "Criminals Welcome" signs. Your choice. :mrgreen:


Absolutely. The point, of course, is that it is my right to do so or not to do so at my pleasure...until when?.......

until I am notified of the lawfully permitted suspension of my right according to law.

The Lone Star Republic of Texas....What a country!!!!! :txflag: :iagree:

tex
Texas LTC Instructor, NRA Pistol Instructor, CFI, CFII, MEI Instructor Pilot


Abraham
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Re: Signs for the CHLer

Postby Abraham » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:31 am

brick posted: "If I see signs prohibiting carry, whether to the letter of the law or not, I do not carry into that establishment."

I read a little unintended (I think...) sanctimony in that statement. I hope I'm wrong...

Please read thetexan's post and reconsider your statement.

Many of us disregard bogus no gun signs without thinking we are disrespecting the business owner by remaining armed. If the business owner hasn't taken the time to put up a proper 30.06 sign he/she may be doing as a tactic to keep customers.

There's a school of thought that states some business owner post unenforceable no guns signs deliberately as it appeases the anti-gun crowd, fully realizing knowledgeable LTCers know they can legally remain armed and do their purchasing in that business as he/she knows bogus no gun signs can legally be ignored. Thus, the business owner satisfies a broad range of customers.

The anti-gun crowd isn't generally educated about bogus no gun signs and is happy.

The pro-gun crowd is happy too as they know they can walk past the bogus no gun sign with impunity and with no disrespect aimed the business owner.


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