Signs for the CHLer

[A-R]

W42, welcome aboard!

Check around Seton @ 38th because I believe there is at least one valid 30.06 sign posted there at one of the entrances. Other entrances have the outdated 4413(29ee) sign, then there's the sign you've posted. It's a hopeless mismatch of postings. Concealed means concealed. Carry at your own risk. You might beat the rap, but not the ride etc. .....basically, do what you're comfortable doing but remember what Suzanna Hupp told Congress: "I would much rather be sitting in jail with a felony offense on my head and have my parents alive"

As for this particular sign, I don't even see how it meets the requirements of the statutes it notes in your second photo. I also don't understand why PC 411.204(b) hasn't been removed from the law because it appears to require hospitals to post a sign that is no longer enforceable (might mention this in the 2011 legislative prep thread).

37 Texas Administrative Code 6.4 I can't find anywhere ... http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/rea ... ew=2&ti=37" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/?link=PE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sec. 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES. (a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).(b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that the sign include on its face the number "51".(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.(d) A business that has a permit or license issued under the Alcoholic Beverage Code and that is not required to display a sign under this section may be required to display a sign under Section 11.041 or 61.11, Alcoholic Beverage Code.(e) This section does not apply to a business that has a food and beverage certificate issued under the Alcoholic Beverage Code.

I fail to see how the wording "It is unlawful to carry a handgun on these premises" meets the requirements of PC 411.204 (c). The sign is supposed to look identical to a 51% sign without the red 51%.

[Hoi Polloi]

What's the text of the code they cite? If it is the section on universities, it could be valid if it is a teaching hospital.

[teds787]

NO YOU CANNOT CARRY This is a .30-06 Sign. Don't ignore it.

I went to Six Flags this weekend. They had a sign kinda like this one except half of the text (both English and Spanish) was in a red colored font (I wish I had taken a picture). All the words seemed be correct, just half of them were red. Does the red lettering effect the validity or "legalness" of it?

Thanks in advance,
TedS787

[sjfcontrol]

No -- not as long as it is in a "contrasting color" (presumably from the background). Any color, as long as it contrasts from the background is acceptable.

Text characters are supposed to be at least one-inch tall, though.

[Jumping Frog]

Hello from Ohio. I thought I'd start familiarizing myself with Texas Concealed Carry because I have three brothers that live in Texas and I am planning on moving down in the future.

First, the whole point of my questions is to understand Texas law (obviously), but my frame of reference right now is I am intimately familiar with Ohio law. So no offense is meant if I am framing my questions that way.

1. Does Texas require you "knowingly" violate the statute? What if you are distracted and honestly didn't see the sign? (In Ohio, the statute uses the word "knowingly" instead of recklessly or negligently. This means if I am worrying about my job or my kids or otherwise distracted and negligently fail to see and read the sign, I haven't technically violated the statute and would use that defense if charged.)

2. Does Texas require every entrance to be posted for a valid prohibition? (For example, our local AMC theater has about 12 different doors as entrances. Some are posted and some are not posted. In Ohio, if I went in a non-posted entrance and I not breaking the law.)

TIA.

[Purplehood]

Hello from Ohio. I thought I'd start familiarizing myself with Texas Concealed Carry because I have three brothers that live in Texas and I am planning on moving down in the future.

First, the whole point of my questions is to understand Texas law (obviously), but my frame of reference right now is I am intimately familiar with Ohio law. So no offense is meant if I am framing my questions that way.

1. Does Texas require you "knowingly" violate the statute? What if you are distracted and honestly didn't see the sign? (In Ohio, the statute uses the word "knowingly" instead of recklessly or negligently. This means if I am worrying about my job or my kids or otherwise distracted and negligently fail to see and read the sign, I haven't technically violated the statute and would use that defense if charged.)

2. Does Texas require every entrance to be posted for a valid prohibition? (For example, our local AMC theater has about 12 different doors as entrances. Some are posted and some are not posted. In Ohio, if I went in a non-posted entrance and I not breaking the law.)

TIA.

Wow. I prefer the Ohio interpretation as I don't think it works that way here...

[dicion]

Hello from Ohio. I thought I'd start familiarizing myself with Texas Concealed Carry because I have three brothers that live in Texas and I am planning on moving down in the future.

First, the whole point of my questions is to understand Texas law (obviously), but my frame of reference right now is I am intimately familiar with Ohio law. So no offense is meant if I am framing my questions that way.

1. Does Texas require you "knowingly" violate the statute? What if you are distracted and honestly didn't see the sign? (In Ohio, the statute uses the word "knowingly" instead of recklessly or negligently. This means if I am worrying about my job or my kids or otherwise distracted and negligently fail to see and read the sign, I haven't technically violated the statute and would use that defense if charged.)

2. Does Texas require every entrance to be posted for a valid prohibition? (For example, our local AMC theater has about 12 different doors as entrances. Some are posted and some are not posted. In Ohio, if I went in a non-posted entrance and I not breaking the law.)

TIA.

Wow. I prefer the Ohio interpretation as I don't think it works that way here...

Agreed!

Jumping Frog, for your original questions,

#1 - No, if you violate the statute, you violate the statute. Accidental or not. The statute requires that signs be placed 'conspicuously', so you can argue that maybe they were not 'conspicuous', but you would be making that argument in court, after being arrested.
I'm assuming that you read the whole thread up to this point, so you know that only a Valid 30.06 sign, or a 51% Sign counts. No Gunbusters sign, 'No Guns' sign, etc is legal to prevent you from carrying.

Now, in regards to #2, once again, for the 30.06 sign, it just says 'conspicuously'... that's its only requirement. How that is applied would be up to the court.
For a 51% sign, however, TABC Law requires that it be posted at the main entrance, yes. I'm not sure of EVERY entrance, but at the Main entrance, yes. Also, in regards to the 51% sign, an improperly posted sign is a defense to prosecution in case you get busted. This means you will probably still be cuffed and stuffed, but if you can prove the sign was not properly posted, they have to let you off.

[Jumping Frog]

Thanks for the replies. It is as important to know how a law is applied as knowing what the law is.

[RPB]

legal? at Seton Hospital off 38th in Austin, TX

I gotta tell you. If the Attorney I worked for (also a CHL) told me to draft a sign compliant with 411.204 Government Code which requires hospitals to post signs which are non-compliant with 30.06 ... I'd have drafted that same sign, and I'm sure it would say at the bottom it was approved by Hospital's legal dept too.. Hospital in compliance with 411, without making the supervising Attorney violate 30.06. Innocent patrons better protected from evil persons desiring what's in the pharmacy at any cost. All the good guys in compliance with current codes..as well as a hospital in compliance.

Now if there is also a 30.06 sign, I sure wouldn't carry past any 30.06 sign intentionally. If I was on a posted property without having received effective notice, as in if no sign posted at the only entrance I ever went into and am clueless about other entrances, never having been to one, and told by someone in authority to leave, I'd make tracks right away instead of refusing to leave (30.06 Penal Code).

I have been to hospitals which were posted 30.06, and others which were not, and some which apparently didn't bother with putting up a 411.204 sign.

I won't intentionally carry past a 30.06 sign, but criminals would intentionally.

[NuevoJuanSeguin]

Thanks for the post. I just received my FL CCL and so I am in the process of learning the Texas (411) statutes concerning concealed carry. This aids greatly in that research. Much appreciated!

[UpTheIrons]

legal? at Seton Hospital off 38th in Austin, TX

I gotta tell you. If the Attorney I worked for (also a CHL) told me to draft a sign compliant with 411.204 Government Code which requires hospitals to post signs which are non-compliant with 30.06 ... I'd have drafted that same sign, and I'm sure it would say at the bottom it was approved by Hospital's legal dept too.. Hospital in compliance with 411, without making the supervising Attorney violate 30.06. Innocent patrons better protected from evil persons desiring what's in the pharmacy at any cost. All the good guys in compliance with current codes..as well as a hospital in compliance.

Now if there is also a 30.06 sign, I sure wouldn't carry past any 30.06 sign intentionally. If I was on a posted property without having received effective notice, as in if no sign posted at the only entrance I ever went into and am clueless about other entrances, never having been to one, and told by someone in authority to leave, I'd make tracks right away instead of refusing to leave (30.06 Penal Code).

I have been to hospitals which were posted 30.06, and others which were not, and some which apparently didn't bother with putting up a 411.204 sign.

I won't intentionally carry past a 30.06 sign, but criminals would intentionally.

So what you are saying is that these signs do not apply to the CHL holder? As I read 411.204 (c), it seems to say that "a person licensed under this subchapter" must be informed in both English and Spanish, in contrasting colors at least 1" high. That comes awful close to the requirement for posting 30.06 signs. Am I reading it wrong? I understand the law to mean that "a person licensed under this subchapter" must be informed by 30.06 and 51% signs, and no other sign applies.

Or is that what you were saying? That this is just a "feel good" sign with no legal force?

[tacticool]

30.06 is specific about what counts as written communication.

[bdickens]

It really is simple:

Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:

(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and

(2) received notice that:

(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or

(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.

(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

(c) In this section:

(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).

(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).

(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035

Almost only counts in horseshoes.

[UpTheIrons]

30.06 is specific about what counts as written communication.

That's what I thought. Just checking, though. You know how those lawyers are!

[dicion]

Yup. Just because some sign says something's unlawful, doesn't mean it actually is.