When to defend?

[ShootDontTalk]

It's her opinion. And it make sense, No? If you read the Oregon shooting news, the shooter asked the students if they are Christian or not. If they are, he shoots. Relating to that, the shooter is looking for something that he could target. In this case, when he sees a gun, he will shoot.

Not exactly. The shooter in Oregon was looking specifically for Christians to kill. In the second case, there is very little (statistically insignificant) proof that the sight of a gun makes a criminal shoot. There is a huge body of evidence that having a gun in hand and being willing to use it to stop an attack can make the difference between life and death - for you and your family.

I do agree that we couldn't hope of kindness from the shooter. Bear in mind, we were brought up not to deal with violence and that the world is perfect. Do you understand my point? I can't raise my kids telling them to worry about bad guys all the time. I just recalled the movie Iceman, where one of his victim prayed for God for mercy. The same with the other girl that hid in the closet and she was allowed to leave.

I would not recommend taking anything you see in a movie, television or whatever as an example of what happens in reality in any way, shape, or form. That is make believe - even the best advised ones.

The world is a dangerous place. Always has been and always will be. It will never be perfect so long as man is in control. The wise man raises his children to enjoy their childhood until such time as they begin to ponder adult things - or until such time as bad people in the world start to consider them prey. Teach them the good things, but don't shut their eyes to reality. To do so is inviting disaster.

[stroo]

You have received a lot of good advice on here already.

In addition to attending Charles' class if you can, you should consider reading at least a couple of books. Start with Massad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection". Then read Jeff Cooper's "Principles of Personal Defense." I believe you can obtain both of them on Amazon.

Those two books will answer many of your questions.

[VMI77]

kopking10,

You posted: "Her idea was, if you have a gun, the robber sees you with a gun would most likely shoot you."

Please tell me if this is you or your wife's perspective: You're depending on the robber's kindness/reasonableness to do you no harm if you remain defenseless?

Do I have that right?

It's her opinion. And it make sense, No? If you read the Oregon shooting news, the shooter asked the students if they are Christian or not. If they are, he shoots. Relating to that, the shooter is looking for something that he could target. In this case, when he sees a gun, he will shoot.

If you have a concealed gun and you're in a room with several other people as was the case in Oregon what makes you think the shooter is going to see your gun before he hears it?

In general, what makes you think an attacker needs a gun to kill you or do you serious bodily harm? A baseball bat, 2x4, pipe, piece of rebar, or a knife can make you just as dead as a gun. You can be killed by a fist with a hard enough blow to the head. And how about if you're not confronting just one attacker, but three or five with sharpened screwdrivers?

And yes, having a gun cannot prevent all attacks from being successful. Even LEOs get ambushed but most attacks aren't from ambush. Safety requires preparedness and situational awareness whether you have a gun or not, and even then, safety is not absolute.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Thanks, that makes perfect sense. Even if you don't want to carry a handgun, it would be a good idea to take a CHL class from a good instructor. You will learn a lot about Texas law. Taking the CHL course doesn't mean you have to actually get the license. If you choose to get a CHL, it gives you an option to carry a handgun, not an obligation to do so. If you are ever in the Houston area when I'm doing my Texas Self-Defense & Deadly Force Laws Seminar you and your wife might find it helpful.

Chas.

We are in Houston. Is there any online information about your seminar? I spoke with one of the CHL instructor and he told me that I could take the qualifying test first and when we are more comfortable we could get the license within 2 years.

I post the seminars here on the Forum and I send an email blast to people who registered for emails on our club website at http://www.PSC-Range.com. I cover Texas law on the use of force and real world considerations. More time is spent on the latter because anyone can read the black letter law. Understanding how it works is a different matter.

If there is any doubt in your mind that you and/or your wife would actually shoot an attacker, then do not get a gun! The firearm is the tool and your brain is the weapon.

I also want to point out that the statement that the Oregon shooter was looking for a target and that a student with a gun would get shot is unfounded. There are ways to engage a murderer without first letting him know you are armed. One of the major TV networks set up a sham of an experiment, then claimed it was proof that armed students could never defend himself or the class. It was a bald face lie! The "shooter" were trained SWAT officers using paintballs guns. They knew which "student" had the paintball pistol, so they simply ran in and shot him. I offered to do the experiment again, but this time without the officer knowing who had the gun. I never heard back.

Again, do as you will because you will have to live with your decision. My wife is alive today because she had a handgun twice when she needed it and this was not inside our home. No shots were fired, as is usually the case.

Chas.

[Middle Age Russ]

There has been a lot of good discussion on this thread. One statement that struck me is the following.

I can't raise my kids telling them to worry about bad guys all the time.

Nobody wants to have their kids worry all the time - about anything. On the other hand, ignoring the world around us, or viewing reality through the distortion of a fairy-tale lens isn't likely to enhance our lifespan.

As a parent myself, one of my duties is to prepare my children for the world they will be living their (hopefully long) adult, productive lives in. Part of that preparation involves frank discussions about human nature and the presence of evil in the world. Human beings are the apex predator on this planet, and some will prey on other humans that they perceive to be weak. Others will help another person beyond their means to give help because they are giving, compassionate people. If you recognize the good in folks, you also have to recognize the bad. That doesn't mean that you live your life in fear and worry, but that you make the thousands of risk/reward decisions each day understanding that you don't know the hearts of every other person you run into -- and some of them might very well view you with ill intent.

As a predator, we humans are gifted with senses honed to engage the world around us, including the ability to take in visible behavioral cues that tell us another human is a softer, less risky to attack, target than others might be. I want my children to be aware of their behavior and the messages they broadcast to others so that they are less likely to get targeted by the predators out there. I also hope they actively assess everything in the environment to be able to take any advantage they can if they are faced with an attack -- again, not to be worrying, but to be considering options that might enhance their survival.

[kopking10]

I appreciate all of the feedback given. I will take note. I did heard about the wolves, sheep and sheepdogs theory. Thanks for reminding.

Thank you a lot!



BTW, we came from Europe.

[kopking10]

kopking10,

You posted: "Her idea was, if you have a gun, the robber sees you with a gun would most likely shoot you."

Please tell me if this is you or your wife's perspective: You're depending on the robber's kindness/reasonableness to do you no harm if you remain defenseless?

Do I have that right?

It's her opinion. And it make sense, No? If you read the Oregon shooting news, the shooter asked the students if they are Christian or not. If they are, he shoots. Relating to that, the shooter is looking for something that he could target. In this case, when he sees a gun, he will shoot.

If you have a concealed gun and you're in a room with several other people as was the case in Oregon what makes you think the shooter is going to see your gun before he hears it?

In general, what makes you think an attacker needs a gun to kill you or do you serious bodily harm? A baseball bat, 2x4, pipe, piece of rebar, or a knife can make you just as dead as a gun. You can be killed by a fist with a hard enough blow to the head. And how about if you're not confronting just one attacker, but three or five with sharpened screwdrivers?

And yes, having a gun cannot prevent all attacks from being successful. Even LEOs get ambushed but most attacks aren't from ambush. Safety requires preparedness and situational awareness whether you have a gun or not, and even then, safety is not absolute.

I totally agree.

[Charles L. Cotton]

As a predator, we humans are gifted with senses honed to engage the world around us, including the ability to take in visible behavioral cues that tell us another human is a softer, less risky to attack, target than others might be. I want my children to be aware of their behavior and the messages they broadcast to others so that they are less likely get targeted by the predators out there. I also hope they actively assess everything in the environment to be able to take any advantage they can if they are faced with an attack -- again, not to be worrying, but to be considering options that might enhance their survival.

Well said, very well indeed.

Chas.