Double Action Question

The "What Works, What Doesn't," "Recommendations & Experiences"

Moderators: carlson1, Crossfire

User avatar

jmorris
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:41 pm
Location: La Vernia
Contact:

Re: Double Action Question

#16

Post by jmorris »

TXBO wrote:
jmorris wrote:
TXBO wrote:
VMI77 wrote:
oohrah wrote:Do you actually own a DA semi-auto? Depending on the weapon, especially a DA, the hammer is not cocked, so the act of pulling the trigger essentially cocks the trigger then releases it to fire the projectile.
It's probably what you meant but not clear to me from what you wrote....all my DA semi-autos remain cocked after loading a round into the chamber unless I engage the decocker (or safety on the Beretta and others).
That makes it a selective double action/single action.....not simply a double action.
Ok, I've shot some DA semis and on all of them when I loaded the magazine and racked the slide to load a round the hammer was cocked. What SA semi leaves the hammer uncocked?
No single action will leave the hammer uncocked. A double action example would be Para Ordinance LDA (light double action).
SA was a typo. Corrected.
Jay E Morris,
Guardian Firearm Training, NRA Pistol, LTC < retired from all
NRA Lifetime, TSRA Lifetime
NRA Recruiter (link)

rotor
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 3326
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:26 pm

Re: Double Action Question

#17

Post by rotor »

VMI77 wrote:
rotor wrote:
VMI77 wrote:
TXBO wrote:
VMI77 wrote:
oohrah wrote:Do you actually own a DA semi-auto? Depending on the weapon, especially a DA, the hammer is not cocked, so the act of pulling the trigger essentially cocks the trigger then releases it to fire the projectile.
It's probably what you meant but not clear to me from what you wrote....all my DA semi-autos remain cocked after loading a round into the chamber unless I engage the decocker (or safety on the Beretta and others).
That makes it a selective double action/single action.....not simply a double action.
OK, I didn't realize there were DAO semi-autos. I don't see the advantage over DA/SA or SA.
You do understand that in a DA/SA auto that if for some reason the cartridge does not fire (hard primer?) you can pull the trigger again and hopefully the gun fires without racking the slide.
I have several. I don't understand your response. Apparently there are DAO semi autos like the Keltec P32, I'm just not familiar with them. Again, I see no advantage of a DAO semi auto over SA or DA/SA semi auto. Especially since apparently DAO is a feature of small pocket semis, so magazine capacity isn't significantly improved over a revolver, and it comes at the expense of power since they seem to be .380s and I can get .357 in a revolver. I've NEVER had a round fail to fire and then subsequently fire after another trigger pull on any centerfire handgun.
I agree that I also see no advantage of a DAO semi unless a long trigger pull is an advantage. But I have had centerfire rounds that have failed to fire on the first strike that did fire on the second strike. Target practice type stuff. People get lint in their handguns and don't always clean them. Any reason that a round might fire on the second strike and not the first. I was just pointing out that in a DA semi you don't need to rack again to attempt to fire. The only way you can try to fire that round again with a single action is to rack and reload that individual round. Most of these dud rounds have pretty good primer strikes too. Some fire on the second try, some don't. If it's a 22 they get chucked. As a side note I did a study once where I compared primer hardness and if it's a CCI it takes a pretty good hit to fire. Remington and Federal never failed. Winchester was in between.
User avatar

VMI77
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 6096
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:49 pm
Location: Victoria, Texas

Re: Double Action Question

#18

Post by VMI77 »

rotor wrote:
VMI77 wrote:
rotor wrote:
VMI77 wrote:
TXBO wrote:
VMI77 wrote:
oohrah wrote:Do you actually own a DA semi-auto? Depending on the weapon, especially a DA, the hammer is not cocked, so the act of pulling the trigger essentially cocks the trigger then releases it to fire the projectile.
It's probably what you meant but not clear to me from what you wrote....all my DA semi-autos remain cocked after loading a round into the chamber unless I engage the decocker (or safety on the Beretta and others).
That makes it a selective double action/single action.....not simply a double action.
OK, I didn't realize there were DAO semi-autos. I don't see the advantage over DA/SA or SA.
You do understand that in a DA/SA auto that if for some reason the cartridge does not fire (hard primer?) you can pull the trigger again and hopefully the gun fires without racking the slide.
I have several. I don't understand your response. Apparently there are DAO semi autos like the Keltec P32, I'm just not familiar with them. Again, I see no advantage of a DAO semi auto over SA or DA/SA semi auto. Especially since apparently DAO is a feature of small pocket semis, so magazine capacity isn't significantly improved over a revolver, and it comes at the expense of power since they seem to be .380s and I can get .357 in a revolver. I've NEVER had a round fail to fire and then subsequently fire after another trigger pull on any centerfire handgun.
I agree that I also see no advantage of a DAO semi unless a long trigger pull is an advantage. But I have had centerfire rounds that have failed to fire on the first strike that did fire on the second strike. Target practice type stuff. People get lint in their handguns and don't always clean them. Any reason that a round might fire on the second strike and not the first. I was just pointing out that in a DA semi you don't need to rack again to attempt to fire. The only way you can try to fire that round again with a single action is to rack and reload that individual round. Most of these dud rounds have pretty good primer strikes too. Some fire on the second try, some don't. If it's a 22 they get chucked. As a side note I did a study once where I compared primer hardness and if it's a CCI it takes a pretty good hit to fire. Remington and Federal never failed. Winchester was in between.
Sure, my experience is anecdotal....not saying it isn't possible, just that it hasn't happened to me and probably doesn't happen enough to make the DAO a selling point on that basis...for me anyway. One downside I see to an attempted restrike is the integral assumption that there is actually a round in the chamber and it didn't fire. A couple of times I've ended up pulling the trigger again more than once on a DA/SA only to discover that there is no round in the chamber. It's probably better to tap and rack than to pull the trigger again on what may or may not be an unfired round.

I usually get 22 to fire on a second or third strike when I've reloaded the round and the next strike is in a different location on the rim.
"Journalism, n. A job for people who flunked out of STEM courses, enjoy making up stories, and have no detectable integrity or morals."

From the WeaponsMan blog, weaponsman.com

Topic author
IsraelisJewish
Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:48 pm

Re: Double Action Question

#19

Post by IsraelisJewish »

Thank you for these responses. I am trying to be a safe chl person so that's part of the reason for my questions. I will study my weapon some more and I am planning on obtaining more training. My handgun is a Bersa .380 cc. I appreciate your courteous responses. By the way, I have qualified at the range each year for over 20 years but don't mean that as an indication I know alot. It's quite different to qualify once a year vs. Continued carry and having expertise on weapons and mechanics. I know that hence my seeking a greater understanding and training.
David (IsraelisJewish)
SunnyWalker.net
User avatar

Pawpaw
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 6745
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:16 am
Location: Hunt County

Re: Double Action Question

#20

Post by Pawpaw »

20+ years ago, when many LEO organizations were starting the transition from revolvers to semi-auto, there was the usual teeth gnashing and fingernail biting from the chiefs.

They were afraid that their officers, who had used DA revolvers for their whole career, would have a lot of "accidental discharges" with the DA/SA pistols in SA mode. As a result, many of them mandated that an officer could only carry a semi-auto if it were DAO. That caused most manufacturers to offer DAO versions of their full sized duty weapons as well as their BUGs.

Fast forward to today. Striker fired pistols rule in LEO circles and there is little to no demand for DAO service pistols.
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams

Topic author
IsraelisJewish
Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:48 pm

Re: Double Action Question

#21

Post by IsraelisJewish »

OK, got egg on my face. I pull the trigger-no double action, just dry firing. One must manually rack the slide to obtain a loaded chambered round.
David (IsraelisJewish)
SunnyWalker.net

Richbirdhunter
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon May 18, 2015 7:45 pm
Location: DFW Denton County

Re: Double Action Question

#22

Post by Richbirdhunter »

IsraelisJewish wrote:OK, got egg on my face. I pull the trigger-no double action, just dry firing. One must manually rack the slide to obtain a loaded chambered round.
Never be afraid to ask, it's better to gain knowledge here then make a big mistake out there.
Disclaimer: Anything I state can not be applied to 100% of all situations. Sometimes it's ok to speak in general terms.

rotor
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 3326
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:26 pm

Re: Double Action Question

#23

Post by rotor »

IsraelisJewish wrote:OK, got egg on my face. I pull the trigger-no double action, just dry firing. One must manually rack the slide to obtain a loaded chambered round.
Correct. When it comes to dry firing I think on almost every center fire pistol you are OK but on a rimfire ( like a .22) dry firing can damage your firing pin. Your Bursa .380 should be OK unless the manual says not to dry fire.
User avatar

rbwhatever1
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1434
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:16 pm
Location: Paradise Texas

Re: Double Action Question

#24

Post by rbwhatever1 »

rotor wrote:
IsraelisJewish wrote:OK, got egg on my face. I pull the trigger-no double action, just dry firing. One must manually rack the slide to obtain a loaded chambered round.
Correct. When it comes to dry firing I think on almost every center fire pistol you are OK but on a rimfire ( like a .22) dry firing can damage your firing pin. Your Bursa .380 should be OK unless the manual says not to dry fire.
Many gun dealers either don't know this or don't care. I've been looking at Browning / Ruger .22 autos for my wife's Christmas present for about a month. I always ask for snap caps to dry fire and check trigger pull, they never have any. Most of the pistols I've seen have a clear "grooved shiny spot" where the firing pin has been continually striking the chamber rim from people dry firing them. I would never buy an abused display model, especially if there is a noticeable dent.

I like my DA/SA 1911. If it were not so heavy it would be my primary EDC. In a few weeks I can throw it in my old drop leg holster and terrorize the sheep...
III
User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 26790
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: Double Action Question

#25

Post by The Annoyed Man »

VMI77 wrote:
oohrah wrote:Do you actually own a DA semi-auto? Depending on the weapon, especially a DA, the hammer is not cocked, so the act of pulling the trigger essentially cocks the trigger then releases it to fire the projectile.
It's probably what you meant but not clear to me from what you wrote....all my DA semi-autos remain cocked after loading a round into the chamber unless I engage the decocker (or safety on the Beretta and others).
The Kahr pistols are an example of striker fired pistols where the trigger pull both cocks and releases the striker. That's why they have a long trigger pull. I'm not a glockenshpiel (that's TAMish for "Glock Armorer"), but I think that Glock pistols "half-cock" the striker when cycling the action, and pulling the trigger completes the cocking and then releasing of the striker.

To IsraelisJewish, another way to look at it is that the loading function of semiautomatic pistols is separate from the trigger function. They don't perform ONE function, they perform TWO SEPARATE functions. The first requires the slide to be cycled so that [a] anything still in the chamber will be ejected, and a fresh cartridge will be stripped off the magazine and fed into the chamber. There are only two ways to cycle a slide - either manually, or by firing the gun. If the pistol does not have a live round in the chamber to fire, then pulling the trigger all day long will do nothing. It requires the detonation of a live cartridge to link the two functions, and it is only when they are linked by the detonation of a live cartridge that the pistol "self-loads". So, it is irrelevant whether you semiautomatic pistol is hammer fired, or striker fired, double action, or single action. The gun cannot fire without there being a live round in the chamber.

Regarding safety....... All handguns rely on some kind of safety methodology, whether it is a mechanical external safety mechanism such as the thumb safety on a 1911 pistol, the internal safety mechanisms on a Glock, or simply a long and heavy trigger pull which requires pulling the trigger to be a deliberate action. In the end, your most powerful safety mechanism is between your ears, and regardless of how much mechanical interference is built into a pistol's design to prevent negligent discharges, in the end they are prevented by good habits, and a thorough knowledge of how your pistol actually functions.

I echo what others have said here, and that is that, with all due respect, your opening question indicates that you are nowhere near familiar with the actual mechanical functions in a handgun, and that is not safe.......for you, or for those around you. Therefore, BEFORE you take your CHL class, I would strongly urge you to find a local instructor who offers the NRA Basic Handgun class from an NRA certified instructor. In this class, you will have the opportunity to handle different kinds of pistols, gain an understanding of how they function, how to properly load and unload them, how to aim them, and most instructors will give you the opportunity to actually shoot different kinds of pistols in different calibers so that you can get a sense of what kind of gun would work best for you.

A word on gun-counter sales clerks......keep in mind that their advice is colored by their own personal biases. They may be very knowledgeable, but one person will tell you that Glocks are the best. Another will tell you that Springfields or Smith & Wessons are the best....... or that .45 is better than 9mm (that's an insider's joke), or that hammer fired is better than striker fired....... etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum. The best pistol for YOU is the one that fits your hand the best, that you shoot the best, that you are most confident with, and that you are most likely to carry because its size fits your lifestyle choices. Take every opportunity you can to shoot different guns before you drop a few hundred $$$ on something you may not be satisfied with.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

#TINVOWOOT

Topic author
IsraelisJewish
Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:48 pm

Re: Double Action Question

#26

Post by IsraelisJewish »

Dear Annoyed Man:

Thanks for your explanation, that was very understandable and helpful. I also appreciated your encouragement to get some more training. Unlike some who just say "You don't know what you are doing, you are unsafe-go get some training!!", you mentioned a specific class from a reputable organization. Thank you.

Today I just happened to be at a firing range in Abilene where I met an NRA Instructor. We had a long conversation and it was a start and I am sure I will return for a training class from him. I enjoyed all the training I have had before this, and I enjoyed today. The particular firing range I was at allows you to use one of their handguns to try it out. Now I am sure there is a charge, I did not as I had my own handgun. That will be something I will tap in the future though.

OK, thanks Annoyed Man, you brought this thread back to its intended purpose. Appreciate it. :patriot:
David (IsraelisJewish)
SunnyWalker.net
User avatar

gdanaher
Banned
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 670
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:38 am
Location: EM12

Re: Double Action Question

#27

Post by gdanaher »

I would suggest that you get a package of snap caps for your .380. Get rid of the live ammo for the moment and load it up with the snap caps so you can better see how the mechanism functions in slow motion--insertion, ejection, etc.Rack the slide slowly and watch the ejection process. This might provide better instruction than listening to someone tell you what the process is. Doing beats listening. This does not replace a good instructor who can answer your questions.
User avatar

Jago668
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 992
Joined: Sun May 03, 2015 12:31 am

Re: Double Action Question

#28

Post by Jago668 »

The Annoyed Man wrote:Regarding safety....... All handguns rely on some kind of safety methodology, whether it is a mechanical external safety mechanism such as the thumb safety on a 1911 pistol, the internal safety mechanisms on a Glock, or simply a long and heavy trigger pull which requires pulling the trigger to be a deliberate action. In the end, your most powerful safety mechanism is between your ears, and regardless of how much mechanical interference is built into a pistol's design to prevent negligent discharges, in the end they are prevented by good habits, and a thorough knowledge of how your pistol actually functions.
I've said it for awhile. You can't out safe stupid. So I agree the best safety is between your ears. The other thing that boggles my mind is people will look at all different kinds of houses before they buy. They test drive cars before they buy. They will go and sit and test out chairs/couches before they buy. Yet they don't go rent guns and try out different ones before they buy. So if you haven't shot before, go take a basic pistol class like TAM suggested. Then go find a range with a good selection of pistol to rent and try a bunch. In fact try them a few times a week or so apart. If you try twenty different pistols and come up with three you like. Go back in a week or two and try those three again. I generally recommend people to semi-autos, but if you want to try revolvers go ahead. They'll do the job just fine too, and give you access to calibers you can't get in semi-autos (barring a very few exceptions).
NRA Benefactor Member

Topic author
IsraelisJewish
Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:48 pm

Re: Double Action Question

#29

Post by IsraelisJewish »

Jago, I see you are a Senior member . . . so you ought to be able to read. Not trying to be insulting but if you really are interested please read my posts. FYI, I am quite -aww forget it. Thanks one and all. Case closed. Talk to yourselves. Great welcome here on Texaschlforum. Long time before I post anymore. Knowledge and being a teacher is one thing, arrogance is another. Not trying to be insulting, just saying.
David (IsraelisJewish)
SunnyWalker.net
User avatar

Middle Age Russ
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1402
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:44 am
Location: Spring-Woodlands

Re: Double Action Question

#30

Post by Middle Age Russ »

IsraelisJewish,

I haven't commented before now to this thread since I initially didn't know where you were coming from or how I might best be helpful, assuming that you were indeed looking for help. Others quickly jumped in with correct explanations of different trigger actions, so I didn't feel there was much that I could add. Unfortunately, due to some typical online behaviors that most of us have seen before, your intent was met with a bit of speculation and your stated experience was met with condescension. I trust that you are not a troll, and I hope that I don't come across as condescending.

We all come from different levels of knowledge experience and skill. Those of us with considerable knowledge, experience and/or skill sometimes forget that we weren't always at the level we are currently. When we forget this we often end up communicating less effectively than we'd want to, taking for granted that everyone possesses some of the knowledge or experience we have. I don't know where every other member of this forum comes from and wouldn't attempt to speak for them, but I am glad you found this place. There is a tremendous amount of knowledge, experience and skill here even though we are sometimes challenged to communicate effectively. Every question or discussion is a good one when new information or perspective is conveyed to someone looking for it. I hope you stick around and feel free to observe, ask, learn and contribute because things sure would be boring in a world where the same people say the same things to each other all the time. Welcome to the forum!!
Russ
Stay aware and engaged. Awareness buys time; time buys options. Survival may require moving quickly past the Observe, Orient and Decide steps to ACT.
NRA Life Member, CRSO, Basic Pistol, PPITH & PPOTH Instructor, Texas 4-H Certified Pistol & Rifle Coach, Texas LTC Instructor
Post Reply

Return to “New to CHL?”