Another signage question

The "What Works, What Doesn't," "Recommendations & Experiences"

Moderators: carlson1, Crossfire

User avatar

Topic author
minimalist
Junior Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:55 pm

Another signage question

Postby minimalist » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:03 pm

There is a store in my area with 2 entrances. The parking lot goes all around the store, so you would obviously use the entrance closer to where you happened to find a space...

They have a compliant 30.07 sign posted on one entrance door and a compliant 30.06 sign posted on the other door. Depending on where I parked I would see only one sign or the other leading me to believe I could CC if I happened to enter the 30.07 entrance. :headscratch

Should they have both signs visible from all entrances? Or is it the licence holder's responsibility to search the premises for signage?

User avatar

WildBill
Senior Member
Posts: 16337
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:53 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Another signage question

Postby WildBill » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:27 pm

minimalist wrote:There is a store in my area with 2 entrances. The parking lot goes all around the store, so you would obviously use the entrance closer to where you happened to find a space...

They have a compliant 30.07 sign posted on one entrance door and a compliant 30.06 sign posted on the other door. Depending on where I parked I would see only one sign or the other leading me to believe I could CC if I happened to enter the 30.07 entrance. :headscratch

Should they have both signs visible from all entrances? Or is it the licence holder's responsibility to search the premises for signage?

Hello minimalist! I see you are fairly new to the forum, so welcome.

The law requires that the signs be "displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public."
In my opinion, to meet that requirement, both signs should be posted at both entrances.
The theory is that is they are posted in a conspicuous manner you wouldn't have to search the premises for signage.
However, since you have seen both signs you have received notice so you can not carry on the premises. :tiphat:
NRA Endowment Member

User avatar

rtschl
Senior Member
Posts: 543
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:50 pm
Location: Fort Worth

Re: Another signage question

Postby rtschl » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:59 pm

WildBill wrote:

Hello minimalist! I see you are fairly new to the forum, so welcome.

The law requires that the signs be "displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public."
In my opinion, to meet that requirement, both signs should be posted at both entrances.
The theory is that is they are posted in a conspicuous manner you wouldn't have to search the premises for signage.
However, since you have seen both signs you have received notice so you can not carry on the premises. :tiphat:[/quote]

WildBill,

Agreed, except don't forget that 30.07 has to be posted at each entrance, not so for 30.06:
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property.

So effective notice has been given for CC but "technically" not for OC. Might beat the rap but not the ride though I'm in the camp that they've made their wishes known and I don't want to give them any of my money.

Welcome to the forum minimalist.
Ron
NRA Member

User avatar

Topic author
minimalist
Junior Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:55 pm

Re: Another signage question

Postby minimalist » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:21 pm

Thanks for the welcomes guys! I'm new to carrying too and a few concerns have come up before my 'walk' (got my plastic yesterday)

It's my opinion that both signs should be at each entrance. That just makes sense. I won't be visiting this store anyway; I don't approve of their sign choices :lol: It's a situation to watch out for in an unfamiliar area though...

User avatar

Flightmare
Senior Member
Posts: 963
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:00 pm
Location: Plano, TX

Re: Another signage question

Postby Flightmare » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:29 pm

minimalist wrote:Thanks for the welcomes guys! I'm new to carrying too and a few concerns have come up before my 'walk' (got my plastic yesterday)

It's my opinion that both signs should be at each entrance. That just makes sense. I won't be visiting this store anyway; I don't approve of their sign choices :lol: It's a situation to watch out for in an unfamiliar area though...


I would advise downloading the Texas3006 app for your smart phone. Or you can go to www.texas3006.com
Deplorable lunatic since 2016

User avatar

Topic author
minimalist
Junior Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:55 pm

Re: Another signage question

Postby minimalist » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:32 pm

Flightmare wrote:
I would advise downloading the Texas3006 app for your smart phone. Or you can go to http://www.texas3006.com


Thanks Flightmare! I did exactly that earlier today. The map shows the signs I already knew about plus a few I didn't...

User avatar

WildBill
Senior Member
Posts: 16337
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:53 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Another signage question

Postby WildBill » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:32 pm

rtschl wrote:WildBill,

Agreed, except don't forget that 30.07 has to be posted at each entrance, not so for 30.06:
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property.

So effective notice has been given for CC but "technically" not for OC. Might beat the rap but not the ride though I'm in the camp that they've made their wishes known and I don't want to give them any of my money.

Welcome to the forum minimalist.
Rtschl - You are correct about the language stating "at each entrance". :thumbs2:
I believe that he still had effective notice since he did read the one 30.07 sign that was displayed.
NRA Endowment Member

User avatar

rtschl
Senior Member
Posts: 543
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:50 pm
Location: Fort Worth

Re: Another signage question

Postby rtschl » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:04 pm

My dress code choice is not OC but since 30.07 is not at each entrance it would be a defense to prosecution as it is not compliant with the statute just like size requirements of signs. I wouldn't want to be the test case for it though. I wish 30.06 did have requirement to be posted at every entrance.
Ron
NRA Member

User avatar

C-dub
Senior Member
Posts: 11297
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Another signage question

Postby C-dub » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:12 pm

minimalist wrote:Thanks for the welcomes guys! I'm new to carrying too and a few concerns have come up before my 'walk' (got my plastic yesterday)

It's my opinion that both signs should be at each entrance. That just makes sense. I won't be visiting this store anyway; I don't approve of their sign choices :lol: It's a situation to watch out for in an unfamiliar area though...

That is also my opinion, but the legislators have never called me up to ask me anything about this yet. So, in the meantime, we play the cards we've been dealt. It would be nice if they'd add "each entrance" to 30.06 sign requirements.

Welcome to the forum.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.


thetexan
Senior Member
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:18 pm

Re: Another signage question

Postby thetexan » Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:06 am

30.07 signs must be posted at each entrance to the PROPERTY.

30.06 does not have the 'at each entrance' requirement but does use the word PROPERTY.

"Conspicuous" is always a debatable subject as to what that means exactly. Since there is no legal definition that my research has found common canons of statutory interpretation leaves its definition to 'its common meaning and usage'. So what does 'conspicuous' mean as it relates to signage? There have been raging debates here on this subject, in many of which I participated. There is a vital clue hidden in the text of 30.05 which I believe clarifies the definition of conspicuous.

All three sections, 30.05, 30.06, 30.07, are trespassing rules of various kinds with 30.06 and 30.07 being specific to trespassing with handguns. All three sections have several things in common...

1. That a trespass occurs when one enters onto or remains on another's property without the effective consent of the owner after notification
2. Notification, which includes...
....a. oral notification
....b. written notification
....c. signage notification
....d. some form of required conspicuousness and clear visibility to the public of the signage

and in all three sections, very importantly...

....e. that the definition of having been notified sufficient to satisfy the mechanics of each section relating to signage depends ONLY ON THE PROPER compliance and posting of the signage. Nothing in the sections, as written, requires any action or lack of action on the part of the actor to observe the signage as part of the fulfillment of having been notified.

We may THINK we have to see the sign. It may SEEM OBVIOUS that the sign must have been seen to have been notified. We may INTERPRET that the actor must see the sign. But, as written, there is no REQUIREMENT in the statutes that the signage actually be seen by the actor for the actor to have been notified by rule.

In fact, 30.05, 30.06 and 30.07 go out of their way to define notification, and in all three sections notification, as it relates to signs, is solely dependent on the proper posting and compliance of the sign. This is not unlike driving down the highway and not seeing a 55 mph speed limit sign because an 18 wheeler was between you and the sign. You are still required to drive 55 mph and failure to see the sign is unnecessary to determine that you are guilty of violating the sign. In the case of 30.05, 30.06, and 30.07 you have been notified none the less according to the recipe for notification under all three sections.

One can take this even farther. If I have been notified due to the compliance of the statutory definition of notification as I walk in the front door, then I, by the same logic, have been notified if I am 50 ft from the door...since my proximity to the actual signage is not a part of the definition or requirements of notification. And if I am just stepping out of my car I am still in a state of having been notified because of those same rules of notification. And if I am notified as I exit my vehicle then why not as I sit in my living room. In other words, the world has been put on proper notice that a trespass will occur under certain conditions by the act of properly posting compliant signage as per statute...whether or not the world ever sees the sign notification or not!

AS LONG AS THE SIGNS ARE (in all three sections by one definition or the other,) CONSPICUOUS AND VISIBLE.

30.06 and 30.07 use the word conspicuous. The arguments rage and continue.

Here is how 30.05 defines its requirement for visibility...

"...a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, (notice the choice of placement) reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden."

This is a very good definition of 'conspicuous' as it relates to intrusive entry. If we refine that definition for any sign for any purpose, such as, 'LIMIT 2 PER CUSTOMER', the definition might read...'a sign or signs posted in such a way that they are reasonably likely to come to the attention of the persons for whom the message thereon is intended.'

If we use this definition we find in 30.05 and plug it in to 30.06 and 30.07, we have a clearer understanding of what the legislators probably meant when they choose to use 'displayed in a conspicuous manner...' after having used the phrase '...reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders...' in the previous trespassing section.

So, in short, and as counter intuitive as that may seem, it is clear that the fact that you actually see the sign is not a prerequisite of your having been properly and legally notified. Must you drive around the property to find the signs before you enter? You shouldn't have to if the signs are properly conspicuous and reasonably likely to come to your attention. A small compliant sign on the entrance you enter into, IF IT IS LEGALLY CONSPICUOUS....HAS MET THE DEFINITION OF CONSPICUOUSNESS and, if it is clearly visible to the public (or in the case of 30.05 reasonably likely to come to the attention of an intruder), YOU HAVE BEEN NOTIFIED, and it doesn't matter if you see it or not.

If a single, huge, compliant 50 foot billboard posted somewhere on the parking lot IS CONSPICUOUS...IT HAS MET THE DEFINITION OF CONSPICUOUSNESS and, if it is clearly visible to the public (or in the case of 30.05 reasonably likely to come to the attention of an intruder), YOU HAVE BEEN NOTIFIED, and it doesn't matter if you see it or not (as long as it was reasonably likely to come to your attention using my 30.05 interpretation of conspicuousness). It would follow that as the more complex and convoluted the design of a structure is the more signage is necessary and is directly proportional to the size and placements of the signs. A very complicated mall structure might need 20 small signs or one gigantic billboard in the parking lot...

as far as meeting the requirements of notification in 30.05, 30.06, or 30.07 are concerned.

And remember, there are two posting requirements...

1. in 30.05, posted on the PROPERTY or ENTRANCE to the PROPERTY (notice that it says PROPERTY, not doors)
2. posted on the PROPERTY in 30.06(notice that it doesn't say where on the property)
3. posted at each entrance to the PROPERTY IN 30.07 (notice that it doesn't specify that entrance to THE PROPERTY = doors)

and that

1. in the case of 30.05 the signs are ..." reasonably likely to come to the attention of an intruder...
2. in the case of 30.06 and 30.07 the signs are posted conspicuously and 'clearly visible to the public'.

My intent here is not to suggest what one does in any particular circumstance. Nor does this disregard the discretion of lower trial courts to impose their interpretations of this or any statute at trial. My intent is to bring attention to the basics of what the statute says and only what the statute says as a study, free from added interpretations or embellishments.

hope this helps.

tex
Texas LTC Instructor, NRA Pistol Instructor, CFI, CFII, MEI Instructor Pilot


Bodeneth
Junior Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 9:37 am

Re: Another signage question

Postby Bodeneth » Thu May 25, 2017 1:01 am

When I went thru the gun class for my LTC, my instructor made it a point to emphasize that if a business does not want any guns on their property, they must have 30.06 AND 30.07 signs at every entrance.

Even tho Ive seen people post here that the 'every entrance' requirement only applies to 30.07, I feel it would fall short of effective legal notification if the 30.06 was not posted at every entrance. A good attorney could argue that I wasnt notified of their desire that concealed carry wasnt welcome if the entrance I used wasnt posted with a 30.06 sign.

Additionally, I sometimes see a 30.06 sign alone. According to how I was taught, if a business only has a 30.06 sign, I can carry openly there. In other words, some folks believe that 30.06 bans both concealed and open carry, when in fact a 30.06 sign only mentions concealed carry.

User avatar

chamberc
Senior Member
Posts: 464
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:45 pm
Location: Las Colinas

Re: Another signage question

Postby chamberc » Thu May 25, 2017 7:37 am

Bodeneth wrote:When I went thru the gun class for my LTC, my instructor made it a point to emphasize that if a business does not want any guns on their property, they must have 30.06 AND 30.07 signs at every entrance.


He was incorrect according to the law in regards to the 30.06. Be prepared to be verbally notified if you open carry where only 30.06 is posted.
NRA Life Member
TSRA Life Member
LTC since 2000
http://www.texas3006.com


skeathley
Member
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:29 am
Location: McKinney, TX
Contact:

Re: Another signage question

Postby skeathley » Thu May 25, 2017 8:37 am

chamberc wrote:He was incorrect according to the law in regards to the 30.06. Be prepared to be verbally notified if you open carry where only 30.06 is posted.


If a given entrance has only 30.06 posted, the actor can OC, as 30.07 must be posted at every entrance. It is almost certain that they do not want guns on the property, but are too clueless to get it right, and will probably ask you to leave. However, that would be a good way to educate them so they correct the problem. Alternatively, one could just point out the problem to the manager, which might save them from future awkward situations.

The actor might also point out that getting the signs right is helpful for the phone app that will steer away from their business the 1,000,000 LTCs who will not do business with them.

:thewave
Texas LTC Instructor / RSO
Viet Nam Veteran: 25th Infantry, Cu Chi
https://mckinneyfirearmstraining.com

User avatar

bigtek
Member
Posts: 114
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:48 am

Re: Another signage question

Postby bigtek » Thu May 25, 2017 5:45 pm

Bodeneth wrote:When I went thru the gun class for my LTC, my instructor made it a point to emphasize that if a business does not want any guns on their property, they must have 30.06 AND 30.07 signs at every entrance.

What law requires a 30.06 sign at each entrance?

Anyways, even if they post both signs at every entrance, it doesn't prohibit me from carrying my AR.
The time has come for Texas politicians to choose sides.
  1. Pro RKBA
  2. Pro Rapist


Return to “New to CHL?”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 5 guests