Half Cock on Holstering

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Noggin
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Half Cock on Holstering

Postby Noggin » Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:40 pm

This is now the end of my second month of concealed carry. Before I got my license I obtained the holster shown in the pic below which was specifically made for that pistol. Unfortunately I have not felt comfortable with it, I feel like it sticks out way too far from my body and the whole rig seems to bounce about as I walk.

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As a result I have mostly been using something more generic, it fits my pistol well and holds it snug against my body, therefore does not sick out or bounce around and I generally feel comfortable wearing it, of course (shock horror) it is nylon. On a couple of occasions on returning home I removed the weapon from the holster and found that it was Half Cocked. As it is an DA/SA pistol I have been carrying it with one in the chamber hammer dropped safety off. So finding it in that condition as I removed it was a little disturbing. After the first incident I was even more careful about keeping my finger clear of the trigger. After the second incident I had an idea which I subsequently confirmed by dry experiment. When inserting the pistol into the holster there was sufficient friction between the holster and the slide to rack it to half cock. So the simple fix is, that I now have a new drill, set the safety to "de cock", next holster pistol, then release the safety once it is secure, which I easy enough to do with my thumb.

So I have been wondering has anyone else here had a similar experience. I realise that this issue only applies to DA/SA pistols, OK I guess you could replicate this situation with a SA weapon but why would you want to try and carry it round chambered hammer down?
Last edited by Noggin on Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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treadlightly
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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby treadlightly » Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:48 pm

Fortunately, half cock held and didn't drop the hammer. Good thing.

For me that would prove that holster/gun combination is unacceptably risky.

Please get a safe holster. I know this sounds harsh, but I recommend you don't carry until you have the right gear to carry safely and securely.

Welcome to the armed lifestyle. Be safe!

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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby Pawpaw » Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:00 pm

Several thoughts come to mind:

1. Paddle holsters are generally not known for holding a pistol in tight. I say "generally" because I have a Tucker Silent Thunder (no longer made) that holds my 1911 in so tight most people would be surprised to learn it's a paddle holster.

2. If the gun is bouncing around, it sounds like you're not using a real gun belt.

3. Any time I holster a hammer-fired pistol (and all of mine are hammer-fired) I put my thumb on the back of the hammer and use that to push the pistol home. If you're pushing on the hammer, it can't go to half cock.

I didn't mention the nylon holster because it sounds like you already recognize the problems with that. :tiphat:
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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby Noggin » Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:48 pm

Pawpaw wrote:Several thoughts come to mind:

2. If the gun is bouncing around, it sounds like you're not using a real gun belt.

3. Any time I holster a hammer-fired pistol (and all of mine are hammer-fired) I put my thumb on the back of the hammer and use that to push the pistol home. If you're pushing on the hammer, it can't go to half cock.


Good point about the gun belt. This really shows my cultural ignorance on these matters, that until a couple of days ago I thought "gun belts" were only used in either the "old west" or full tactical rigs. I only just discovered that such things are also made for routine concealed carry. Maybe one of those combined with the holster in the pic will work, I would prefer to use that as it was made for that gun.

I should have mentioned before that I also have recently been holstering with my thumb on the hammer and once the pistol is fully pushed home use my thumb to feel for any gap between the back of the slide and the face of the hammer.
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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby WildBill » Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:49 pm

Noggin wrote:This is now the end of my second month of concealed carry. Before I got my license I obtained the holster shown in the pic below which was specifically made for that pistol. Unfortunately I have not felt comfortable with it, I feel like it sticks out way too far from my body and the whole rig seems to bounce about as I walk.

As a result I have mostly been using something more generic, it fits my pistol well and holds it snug against my body, therefore does not sick out or bounce around and I generally feel comfortable wearing it, of course (shock horror) it is nylon. On a couple of occasions on returning home I removed the weapon from the holster and found that it was Half Cocked. As it is an DA/SA pistol I have been carrying it with one in the chamber hammer dropped safety off. So finding it in that condition as I removed it was a little disturbing. After the first incident I was even more careful about keeping my finger clear of the trigger. After the second incident I had an idea which I subsequently confirmed by dry experiment. When inserting the pistol into the holster there was sufficient friction between the holster and the slide to rack it to half cock. So the simple fix is, that I now have a new drill, set the safety to "de cock", next holster pistol, then release the safety once it is secure, which I easy enough to do with my thumb.

So I have been wondering has anyone else here had a similar experience. I realise that this issue only applies to DA/SA pistols, OK I guess you could replicate this situation with a SA weapon but why would you want to try and carry it round chambered hammer down?

I can't tell the make and model of holster or handgun from your picture. I have two types of paddle holsters that I use for my DA/SA PX4 Storm SC.
Both of my holsters firmly grip the pistol and neither the pistol or rig bounces around. Perhaps the holster is not properly attached to your gun belt.
I don't know the cause, but it is possible that your holster is not adjusted properly [it appears to have an adjustment screw].
It is also possible that you are cocking the hammer with your thumb during your "check".
I don't know if it is proper procedure to have your thumb on the hammer when inserting into the holster. I have never felt the need to do that.

As the other posters suggested, DO NOT CARRY WITH THIS SETUP until you find the root cause and eliminate it.
I also suggest that you DO NOT use a generic holster.
This is a very dangerous situation with possibly fatal consequences. A disaster waiting to happen.
Maybe you can find an instructor who can meet you face to face to help you out. :tiphat:
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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby Noggin » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:07 pm

The pistol is an IWI baby eagle 9mm

The holster in the pic is made in Israel by IMI defence it is specifically marketed for the baby eagle. It has two adjustments one screw to adjust the angle of the holster in relation to the paddle and the other screw that adjusts the pressure against the frame. The critical point being that it squeezes against the frame NOT the slide (this I have checked) so even if adjusted too tight this would not cause a half cock problem.

The half cock issue was caused by my other generic holster (no pic), which I would consider abandoning if I can make the IMI one work comfortably. It is certainly easier to both draw and re-holster with the IMI, but when carrying the grip feels like it is sticking out 6" away from my body.
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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby Liberty » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:23 pm

Is that a decocker or a manual safety? If it is a manual safety and it is engaged, I don't believe the handgun will sustain a half cock. The thing is you will need to retrain yourself to sweep the safety when you draw. I found it pretty easy to set muscle memory to do this every time. This, in my opinion, is they way the handgun was intended to be used.
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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby carlson1 » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:37 pm

Welcome to the Forum. I also would suggest not to carry until you were able to buy a good holster for your model of pistol.

People sometimes buy a reliable firearm for carry, but they use a cheap holster and/or a cheap belt. It does cost money to be able to carry safe.

You can look here for good holster companies: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6515

As far as the belt I would look here: https://www.thebeltman.net/ https://www.bullhidebelts.com/
http://dmbullardleather.com/
DM Bullard also makes great holsters. I use there Dual Carry for most of my pistols. His Dual carry is both IWB and OWB. I just like leather though.

Like I said when you start looking you will see just Dollar signs, but remember when we are going to carry a firearm it is our responsibility to carry safe.
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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby rotor » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:40 pm

Why don't you contact IMI and ask them about the 1/2 cocked position? There is nothing in the manual that mentions it which is surprising to me. Some people say yes and some say no for 1/2 cocked. My SR1911 manual clearly states not to carry in the 1/2 cocked position. It is probably a bad idea but the manual should be your guide as to safety.

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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby carlson1 » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:53 pm

rotor wrote:Why don't you contact IMI and ask them about the 1/2 cocked position? There is nothing in the manual that mentions it which is surprising to me. Some people say yes and some say no for 1/2 cocked. My SR1911 manual clearly states not to carry in the 1/2 cocked position. It is probably a bad idea but the manual should be your guide as to safety.


The halfcock is not to be used ever on a 1911 (I am assuming on any pistol). The reason the 1911 has the halfcock position is because it is a safety and that is it. It is the last effort to stop the hammer from hitting the firing pin when you are going to pull the hammer back manually. I have never pulled the hammer back manually, but some folks were taught to do so. Pulling the hammer back and you slip - then the halfcock position saves you from firing the pistol.
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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby WildBill » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:08 pm

I don't know anything about the IWI Baby Eagle 9 mm pistol, but the OP stated it is SA/DA so I don't see how the comments about the half cock on a [SA} 1911 are relevant.
What am I missing? :headscratch
Last edited by WildBill on Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby Noggin » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:09 pm

carlson1 wrote:The halfcock is not to be used ever on a 1911 (I am assuming on any pistol). The reason the 1911 has the halfcock position is because it is a safety and that is it.


Quite true and on the baby eagle (like I think most DA/SA type pistols) the hammer can only be put into the "half cock" position when the safety is off with the "Red Dot" visible. If the safety is switched to the "White Dot" safe position the hammer is automatically de-cocked from both the half cock or full cock position. If the "White Dot" is showing then the hammer will always stay dropped and the trigger is disengaged. Therefore it is impossible to carry this sort of pistol "cocked and locked". For that reason the logical way to carry the weapon is round chambered, hammer down, safety off (showing red dot) in this condition the weapon is no more dangerous than a DA revolver.

Maybe until I get a proper gun belt I should go in the attic and get out my old Army Sam Brown belt, that was strong enough to carry my Sword so why not my pistol.
Last edited by Noggin on Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby WildBill » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:12 pm

Noggin wrote:
carlson1 wrote:The halfcock is not to be used ever on a 1911 (I am assuming on any pistol). The reason the 1911 has the halfcock position is because it is a safety and that is it.


Quite true and on the baby eagle (like I think most DA/SA type pistols) the hammer can only be put into the "half cock" position when the safety is off with the "Red Dot" visible. If the safety is switched to the "White Dot" safe position the hammer is automatically de-cocked from both the half cock or full cock position. If the "White Dot" is showing then the hammer will always stay dropped and the trigger is disengaged. Therefore it is impossible to carry this sort of pistol "cocked and locked". For that reason the logical way to carry the weapon is round chambered, hammer down, safety off (showing red dot) in this condition the weapon is no more dangerous than a DA revolver.

:iagree: This is exactly how I carry my Beretta PX4 Storm SC. With the PX4 Storm, it is possible to half cock the hammer with the safety off.
Except that most DA revolvers have a longer and harder trigger pull that a DA/SA handgun.
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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby rotor » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:31 pm

carlson1 wrote:
rotor wrote:Why don't you contact IMI and ask them about the 1/2 cocked position? There is nothing in the manual that mentions it which is surprising to me. Some people say yes and some say no for 1/2 cocked. My SR1911 manual clearly states not to carry in the 1/2 cocked position. It is probably a bad idea but the manual should be your guide as to safety.


The halfcock is not to be used ever on a 1911 (I am assuming on any pistol). The reason the 1911 has the halfcock position is because it is a safety and that is it. It is the last effort to stop the hammer from hitting the firing pin when you are going to pull the hammer back manually. I have never pulled the hammer back manually, but some folks were taught to do so. Pulling the hammer back and you slip - then the halfcock position saves you from firing the pistol.

On the internet, the bible of all things, they relate that some of the CZ pistols can be carried in half-cock position as a safety mode. I realize that for a 1911 this is a do not do thing and my SR1911 manual specifically says not to do it. The baby eagle manual doesn't mention it at all which seems to be a defect in the manual. I am not recommending carry in half-cocked but certainly the manufacturer of the gun should have some mention about it in the manual (leave something out and you have a lawsuit). Unless there is some specific benefit to ever have a baby eagle in half-cock position I would not do it and probably not safe. I realize that the author is not wanting it to be in half cocked position but there should be some info as to safety in this particular gun.

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Re: Half Cock on Holstering

Postby WildBill » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:39 pm

Sometimes the Israelis do things differently.
Maybe they carry it half-cocked with an empty chamber?
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