Green/Red chamber

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txpilot
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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby txpilot » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:12 am

As others have already noted, they way you decide to carry is a personal choice, so in the end, it's your decision. For me, I always have a round chambered, and if I happen to have my 1911, it's cocked and locked. I'll just leave this as more "food for thought" in making your final decision...

Let's say you get in a situation where you feel the need to draw your weapon to prepare for a potential threat that you see developing, but it hasn't reached the point where you feel the need to immediately discharge the weapon. Do you now present an "unloaded" firearm or do you go ahead and rack the slide so you are ready if the situation develops to that point? If you don't rack the slide until it develops further, at what point to you decide to do that - and will you still have time?

So now you have a round chambered because you racked the slide, and the situation resolves itself without the need to discharge. What is the next step? Do you drop the magazine, rack the slide to eject the chambered round, retrieve the round from wherever it landed, then put it back in the magazine, put the magazine back in the weapon and then re-holster? Seems like a lot of fumbling around with the weapon for me. I rather just have to re-holster without all of that and be ready for the next time it may be required.

Again, I'm just provide another scenario for you to consider when making your decision - at least you have decided to carry which is always a good thing.

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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby bblhd672 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:23 am

I agree that each person has to choose for themselves. Personally, I have one in the chamber. I'm a bad guesser too, as well as older and slower.

If you decide to go empty chamber, I encourage you to spend hours racking the slide in various positions, scenarios, one handed with both strong and weak hands, etc. with snap caps in your magazine instead of live rounds.
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apvonkanel
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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby apvonkanel » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:34 am

Not a whole lot to add, as I agree with both "carry how you're comfortable" and having the rest of your life to chamber a round. By that I mean spend some time getting comfortable carrying red, along with building muscle memory for your draw. I practice (with an unloaded pistol) drawing and taking off the safety in one fluid motion. It's such a part of muscle memory now that when I'm unholstering my pistol at the end of the day I have to do it slowly, otherwise if I move quickly I have a tendency to automatically take off the safety.

A lot of it comes down to whether or not you trust your sidearm. I would encourage you to get a set of "snap caps", so you can learn to trust your sidearm along with your own competency. You can use them to comfortably check the safety with a round chambered. Actually feeling how I couldn't accidentally fire a round off with the safety on was all I needed to be comfortable carrying red. It also gave me the opportunity to practice drawing, taking off the safety, and pulling the trigger. It helped me train, and training is the best way to build the much lauded muscle memory. Making sure I clear the holster, take off the safety, aim, and then pull the trigger smoothly was essential, as those are the actions I would want to take in an SD event. My preferred range allows holster draw, so I get live practice there every time I go, but with snap caps I can practice at home at my leisure.

Along with practicing, snap caps helped me test the quality of my EDC. The majority of issues with a pistol regarding its safe carry can be identified with snap caps. If you hear the click and firing pin impact any time it shouldn't (holstering, draw, pulling the trigger with the safety on, etc.) it's better to find out there's an issue with a dead round. A) You need to find out about the issue and B) you obviously don't want it to be with a live round. When both you and your sidearm can pass these tests, I've found most people are completely comfortable carrying chambered (I don't say cocked and locked because S&W Shields don't have a hammer to cock). Some prefer to not even have the safety engaged (or no manual safety at all), but that's not me. I'm confident in both my sidearm and myself when it comes to disengaging the safety during the draw. But again, that's a preference issue. You have opinions on both sides of the argument, some claiming carrying with a manual safety on will most likely lead to not firing when you need to, others saying that not having a manual safety engaged will easily lead to an ND. That's one where I say go with your level of comfort.
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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby Lynyrd » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:56 am

I got into a discussion on this subject with a friend last weekend. I carry with a round in the chamber, he does not.

With an unloaded weapon, he demonstrated how quickly he could rack the slide. I then asked him, what if you had been attacked and had one arm disabled? He had the funniest look on his face :shock: but sort of side stepped the question by talking about his physical abilities.

To each his own, but I prefer to have all the time advantage I can get. Of course, you better be sure that your EDC isn't going to surprise you if you carry chambered. I won't knock the glock fans for fear of getting verbally abused :lol: , but I will say I am more comfortable with a safety. I take my safety off as I draw and it is disengaged by the time my gun is unholstered.
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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby treadlightly » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:13 am

Why mess with snap caps? I prefer loading up with good ol' American air for dry fire practice. Live rounds are best for checking the loaded chamber indicator. With a snap cap you are free to develop the habit of confirming a loaded chamber and then firing a dry practice shot at the TV.

Rifles and rimfire guns are a little different, but I've never had a handgun I didn't dry fire a whole bunch on an empty chamber. I don't think there's been any damage.

One of my quirks is a set sequence to clear the gun. Open the slide, look down through the ejection port and the mag well, tip the muzzle down to look into the chamber, and then dry fire or field strip, or whatever I'm going to do. If I don't see pure, uncut air the gun isn't clear.

Of course, the four big rules still apply to cleared guns. I'll admit to dry firing many, many times at things I didn't want to destroy, but never without cognizance of what a round would penetrate, if the gun actually discharged.

Just a thought.

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bblhd672
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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby bblhd672 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:14 am

apvonkanel wrote:A lot of it comes down to whether or not you trust your sidearm. I would encourage you to get a set of "snap caps", so you can learn to trust your sidearm along with your own competency. You can use them to comfortably check the safety with a round chambered. Actually feeling how I couldn't accidentally fire a round off with the safety on was all I needed to be comfortable carrying red. It also gave me the opportunity to practice drawing, taking off the safety, and pulling the trigger. It helped me train, and training is the best way to build the much lauded muscle memory. Making sure I clear the holster, take off the safety, aim, and then pull the trigger smoothly was essential, as those are the actions I would want to take in an SD event. My preferred range allows holster draw, so I get live practice there every time I go, but with snap caps I can practice at home at my leisure.

Along with practicing, snap caps helped me test the quality of my EDC. The majority of issues with a pistol regarding its safe carry can be identified with snap caps. If you hear the click and firing pin impact any time it shouldn't (holstering, draw, pulling the trigger with the safety on, etc.) it's better to find out there's an issue with a dead round. A) You need to find out about the issue and B) you obviously don't want it to be with a live round. When both you and your sidearm can pass these tests, I've found most people are completely comfortable carrying chambered (I don't say cocked and locked because S&W Shields don't have a hammer to cock). Some prefer to not even have the safety engaged (or no manual safety at all), but that's not me. I'm confident in both my sidearm and myself when it comes to disengaging the safety during the draw. But again, that's a preference issue. You have opinions on both sides of the argument, some claiming carrying with a manual safety on will most likely lead to not firing when you need to, others saying that not having a manual safety engaged will easily lead to an ND. That's one where I say go with your level of comfort.


These are the snap caps I purchased, mainly because they are brass and there were 10 in the package.
https://www.amazon.com/KP-Tactical-Snap-Caps-Pack/dp/B01ACJCSBW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1490195603&sr=8-1&keywords=KP+Tactical+snap+caps
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Vol Texan
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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby Vol Texan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:52 am

Alaska2texas wrote:I have been carrying green, or with an empty chamber for the non military folks. Is this smart/safe?

Should i carry red, locked and loaded?

Glock 23, CC holster that covers the trigger.

Also, if 30.06/30.07 signs are posted, the firearm stays in the vehcile. Is it smart to leave it locked and loaded while in the vehicle?


First and foremost, I agree with all others on this forum who said that the best and only way to carry is with one in the chamber. You don't want to waste the time having to rack and definitely don't want to find yourself in a position where you cannot free up both hands to do so. I have learned how to rack one-handed, but that should be an emergency procedure, not my first option.

That being said, I completely understand your thought process. I had a similar concern when I started carrying, and it convinced me to make changes in what I carry, in order to let me be comfortable about carrying with one in the chamber.

When I first got my license, I carried a Glock 36. I loved everything about that gun, until I started to carry it. I used a good leather IWB holster, and I'd never had any issues with it, but I was always concerned about the tail of my shirt (when untucked) catching in the trigger guard as I re-holstered. If it had happened, I would have received no warning short of the bullet leaving the barrel. I'm not a little guy, so this was a real danger - real enough that I carried without one in the chamber. Yes, I know that's crazy, but the safety concern of re-holstering the Glock repeatedly, day-in and day-out, while sitting in the car, outweighed the risk factor of having to rack one if I had to pull in a hurry. I couldn't live with myself if I'd had a ND and hurt someone.

Sure, I could have changed to a paddle holster (or something else that I could remove with the gun still holstered), but I tried them and did not like the feel. For me, my IWB holster was just the right feel, but it was NOT an easy thing to reattach to my belt while sitting in the car in a school parking lot. So disarming required un-holstering and then re-holstering.

This is precisely the reason I changed my EDC from a Glock to my Sig Pro 2022. Now, with my Sig, I can keep my finger behind the trigger and my thumb behind the hammer, and I get a tactile response if the trigger is 'self pulling' due to obstruction such as a shirt tail.

If I were in an OC situation, or if I didn't have to go unarmed at times, this wouldn't be such a concern. But given that I have to holster / un-holster / re-holster during the day (picking up my daughter at school, etc), I thought the risk was too much.

Whatever you do, make whatever changes are required to carry in the chamber. If you can find a comfortable holster that you can remove and reattach to your belt with no issues, then do it, and never take the gun out until you need it. If you cannot do that, then you still have other options. Changing guns was mine - and I hope you find yours soon enough.

Edited to add: Shortly after I posted this message, I saw a new message on another thread about a Glock safety device. If I had known about these devices back in the day, I may not have made the decision that I did. http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=118&t=88352#p1142976
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apvonkanel
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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby apvonkanel » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:45 pm

Alaska2texas wrote:
Also, if 30.06/30.07 signs are posted, the firearm stays in the vehicle. Is it smart to leave it locked and loaded while in the vehicle?


Regarding keeping a round chambered in the vehicle, I don't see an reason this would be an issue. The cabin temp would have to get pretty high (in excess of 800 degrees) to ignite gunpowder, which is the most flammable part of standard pistol ammunition. Assuming your car is going to be stationary, there are no impacts to worry about (even so, most modern pistols have mechanical safeties to avoid this problem). The only other way I could possibly see there being a danger to a gun in a vehicle is if someone got to it (at which point a chambered round is irrelevant). So, to my thinking, I see no concern with leaving a round chambered, outside of the same issues regarding leaving any firearm in your vehicle.
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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby rotor » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:27 pm

If I had to bet everyone who replies carries with one in the chamber. Those that don't won't respond to this post.

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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby ScottDLS » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:43 pm

I carry a revolver with hammer down on an empty chamber and the next chamber empty as well. So my first trigger pull readies the gun and the second, fires a shot. Sometimes the click on an empty chamber is all it takes to scare away the perp. Kind of like racking the slide on an auto.
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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby george72 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:51 pm

I carry a springfield XDS and a springfield XD MOD.2 4", I carry chambered, both have the grip safety which provided extra reassurance while carrying for the first few weeks vs say a Glock.

I like the grip safety as it is not something that I have to remember to disengage under duress (as my grip naturally depresses the safety), but it provides extra reassurance when reholstering as I don't grip that part when reholstering.

Image

RE vehicle: I don't go in 30.06 or 30.07 locations unless it's a hospital or somewhere I HAVE to go. In that case, I slip my IWB kydex holster off and leave the weapon chambered and in the holster locked in the glove box. This is literally less than 3 times a year.

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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby Pawpaw » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:21 pm

I just happened to get an email today from Gun Talk Media which discussed this very subject.

Here's a first-person account: http://guntalk.com/news/personal-defens ... life-story
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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby C-dub » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:47 pm

Pawpaw wrote:If you ever need your pistol in a hurry, you'll have the rest of your life to chamber a round. :shock:

That is awesome Pawpaw. Is that all yours or did you get that from somewhere else? I'm going to try and remember that line whenever this topic comes up in my presence.
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Pawpaw
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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby Pawpaw » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:58 pm

C-dub wrote:
Pawpaw wrote:If you ever need your pistol in a hurry, you'll have the rest of your life to chamber a round. :shock:

That is awesome Pawpaw. Is that all yours or did you get that from somewhere else? I'm going to try and remember that line whenever this topic comes up in my presence.

It's a very old saying about nearly anything critical to staying alive. I can't remember how many things I've heard it said about or even what the first one was.
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams

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Re: Green/Red chamber

Postby Skiprr » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:01 am

Couple of recent, lengthy Topics on the subject:

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=80221

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=87028
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