Tell us your opinions and experiences

Issues important to the ladies, with men and women welcome.

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Jusme
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Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby Jusme » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:28 am

On another thread about shooting ranges, the topic came up regarding women, being intimidated, and possibly even harrassed, by men, at places like ranges, and gun stores.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=88412

To keep from hijacking that thread I started a new one.

I know that I have seen well intentioned men, trying to steer women to guns/accessories etc. that she "needs" There is still a huge bias out there among male gun owners, store clerks, etc., that think they know what is best for a woman, when it comes to guns.

In the above cited thread, the OP wife was actually harassed, and intimidated at a gun range, by some evidently Neanderthalesque idiots.

I was just wondering, if any of our female members, have experienced this type of behavior, either in gun stores, or at ranges, and if so how did you handle the situation?
I have seen a woman walk out a gun store because the clerk all but refused to show her a gun, because it was "too much gun for her" After she left I asked him why he would treat her that way, and he just shrugged, and said, " well she doesn't know much about guns and I "knew" that she couldn't handle a full size 1911, and the pink snubby revolver would be better" I told him that he didn't know too much about women, and he would be losing an additional 50% in sales, if he stayed with that attitude, right before I left. (without buying anything) I have also seen husbands and boyfriends do the same thing when they are shopping for their significant other a gun.

Also if there are other men who have seen their wives or girlfriends treated this way, please post your thoughts.
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

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Vol Texan
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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby Vol Texan » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:09 am

Harassed? No, not that I know of - but some assumptions were made about my wife in a gun store more than once.

The most recent one: just before Christmas, she was visiting our favorite LGS to find out if I'd been looking at anything in particular. The owner pulled down a home defense shotgun that I'd been checking for a few weeks, and showed it to her. She said no, not that...and he pulled another I'd been looking at.

Finally, she said, "No, he's not looking at that for himself - he's looking at that for ME! I'm the one who wants the shotgun. Now...are there any OTHER things he's been looking at lately?"

The owner (who knows my wife's love of guns also) chuckled to himself and apologized. I'd not shared that bit of info with him, so he was just showing her what I had been looking at. But the customer in the store was clearly surprised. The store owner then explained to the customer about how most of the guns in my home have been bought by my wife, rather than by me.
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Vol Texan
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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby Vol Texan » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:18 am

A second story, to follow on the one above. This one doesn't really fall into the category of women being harassed or intimidated, but it still follows my earlier example of how men occasionally (and most incorrectly) assume the fairer sex is less knowledgeable about guns.

My daughter (6 years old at the time) and I were out in west Houston visiting the Army-Navy store near Westheimer and Eldridge. As she and I were looking at some things in the back of the store, she asked me, "Daddy, can I ask him if he has one?"

I doubted he would have one, but told her, "Yes", and stood back to watch as she approached the front counter.

There were no other customers in the store. The young man behind the counter looked down at her as she walked up and said, "Excuse me sir..."

In his kindest voice, after getting a nod from me, he asked her, "Do you want a lollipop?" His mistake...assuming her intentions like that.

"No sir, I wanted to know if you have an auto-loader for a Ruger 10-22 magazine. I shoot too fast for my Daddy to reload them, so he needs one to keep up."

He was almost speechless to have a six-year old girl in a Hello Kitty dress ask him that. He told me, "Oh my God, that's awesome. I don't have one, but if I did, I'd probably give it to you for free because I never expected that question from her."

We should never underestimate anyone - not our foes, not the liberals in government, and certainly not the ladies in our life!

Now, hopefully someone can answer the OP's question with a story like the ones he is expecting to see.
Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
When those fail, aim for center mass.

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RPBrown
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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby RPBrown » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:23 am

When my wife was looking for her second gun, she went by herself to the gunstore/range and I was to meet her there. Now, keep in mind, this was several years ago before she developed arthritis in her hands. She had been shooting my 1911's and XD45 for a while and even carried one of my 1911's. She was looking for a 9mm but the salesman kept trying to get her into a .380 or .32 because he said she couldn't handle a 9mm. When I arrived she gave me that wink and knowing my wife, I played along. She proceeded to tell the guy that she thought she "might be able to handle " a 9mm. He insisted she try a 380 so he took her into the range with a 380 (don't remember which one, too many years ago). I rented a lane and then followed along with my range bag. After she shot the 380 a few times, she asks the guy if she can shoot "her" gun to compare. He says sure so she pulls out "her" Colt 1911 Commander, puts 8 rounds down range and in about a 2" grouping. The look on his face was priceless. Then she came to my lane, we shot for a while and as we started to leave, she stopped at the desk and very loudly told the guy that he should learn to listen to his female customers on what they want, not what he wants them to have and that it cost him a sale. I was proud of my lady that day :clapping:
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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby RPBrown » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:25 am

Vol Texan wrote:A second story, to follow on the one above. This one doesn't really fall into the category of women being harassed or intimidated, but it still follows my earlier example of how men occasionally (and most incorrectly) assume the fairer sex is less knowledgeable about guns.

My daughter (6 years old at the time) and I were out in west Houston visiting the Army-Navy store near Westheimer and Eldridge. As she and I were looking at some things in the back of the store, she asked me, "Daddy, can I ask him if he has one?"

I doubted he would have one, but told her, "Yes", and stood back to watch as she approached the front counter.

There were no other customers in the store. The young man behind the counter looked down at her as she walked up and said, "Excuse me sir..."

In his kindest voice, after getting a nod from me, he asked her, "Do you want a lollipop?" His mistake...assuming her intentions like that.

"No sir, I wanted to know if you have an auto-loader for a Ruger 10-22 magazine. I shoot too fast for my Daddy to reload them, so he needs one to keep up.


"rlol" "rlol" "rlol" "rlol" "rlol" "rlol" "rlol" "rlol" "rlol" "rlol" "rlol" "rlol" "rlol"
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Maxwell
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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby Maxwell » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:33 am

Most of the women I know are better shots than I am (and tougher). I'd sit back and laugh at someone trying to intimidate any of them.
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Middle Age Russ
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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby Middle Age Russ » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:33 am

A handgun is a very personal thing. To be most comfortable with it, it should fit your hand, and it should be in a chambering that the user can handle and shoot well. What I have observed over the years and particularly of late with the ladies in the shooting club my wife leads is that guys, well-meaning though they may be, are often too quick to jump to conclusions rather than ask the right questions (if they even know the right questions to ask).

We frequently see and hear of cases where a lady walks up to a gun counter and the salesperson defaults to a small, light .38 revolver. "You can't go wrong with this, they never jam." seems to be one of the usual selling points. Never mind that the capacity is low, it is slow to reload, it has a short sight radius and likely sights that are difficult to pick up quickly and it is light and therefore lively when fired -- all else being equal. This also happens pretty frequently when the boyfriend/husband buys the gun he "knows" is best for a lady. What happens more often than not is the lady finds out for herself that it isn't a gun she particularly enjoys shooting (whatever the reason), so IF she goes far enough to get her LTC she probably won't practice with the gun and gain true proficiency with it.

This same story holds true for the more recent pocketable .380 offerings. They suffer many of the same shortcomings as the .38 snubbies. They tend to be reasonably difficult to shoot well due to the short sight radius, and they are often fairly lively in the hand (and with less to hold on to). They do come in lots of pretty colors and finishes, though...

At the other end of the spectrum are the guys who don't know what's "best for a lady", but simply know what is "best" or assume that they do. Some of these are the guys you hear laughing in the videos of poor ladies who were given a gun they weren't ready for and got a nasty, or even injurious, surprise. One lady in my wife's shooting club is an example. Her well meaning husband determined that they needed a handgun for defense of the home. He ended up choosing a 1911 pattern pistol in 45ACP. His wife might weigh 110 pounds, has small hands and has a healthy startle reflex. The 1911 does not fit her well, and she was immediately intimidated by the recoil. After shooting that gun under his supervision she developed severe flinching and she could not shoot the gun well. The thing is, she wanted to be able to shoot well because she feels strongly that she is responsible for her own safety as well as her daughter's. She now owns two guns of her own, an M&P 22 (full-size) and a Shield in 9mm, and she has her LTC. She shoots pretty well, but needs to alternate full 9mm with dry fire and the .22 to help eliminate the flinch that develops fairly frequently. I have to wonder if her flinching tendencies would be less severe if she had started out on the .22 rather than on a gun that did not fit her well and had a lot more recoil.

We guys have to consider a few things when it comes to dealing with lady shooters. The lady may have more experience/be more capable than we are with firearms. What level of shooting experience does the other person have (this needs to be answered fairly early)? Before trying to propose a solution / solve a problem, is our help wanted or needed? Do we possess knowledge or skills that really can help? What biases are we bringing into the situation and are they apt to be helpful? If we are helping with firearm selection, what is the gun to be used for? What is the person comfortable shooting? How does the gun fit their hands? Etc.... There are a lot of things to consider, but too often we guys want to solve problems, particularly for ladies or others that we think are less informed than we are, before we have all the information needed to arrive at the best solution. It is often better to slow down, ask good questions and then develop the solution with a solid understanding of the facts and variables.
Russ
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Jusme
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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby Jusme » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:49 am

I have heard some of the most asinine things from gun store clerks, when dealing women. They almost all "assume" that a woman, if she is going to carry a gun, that she will do so in a purse, and try to lead her in the direction of guns they think will work best for that. And they also assume that a semi auto, is too "complicated" for a woman to manipulate properly, and she would be much better off with a revolver.

I have been able to assist some women, by doing exactly what Middle Age Russ said, and that is ASK QUESTIONS!! I can't possibly know what will work for someone else, male or female, if I don't ask the right questions. What will the gun be mainly used for? Is it going to be an EDC carry gun? Have you shot this type of firearm before? Have you had any training?

That is one of the things I like about this forum, is that everyone here seems to know, that without more info, we can't determine what will work for someone else. And then, we all know that, even with more info, the choices come down to whatever works best for that person.

I just wondered if any women here, had experienced any of the things listed, from "experts" at GS, ranges, or just in general?
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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby bblhd672 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:13 am

Jusme wrote: I just wondered if any women here, had experienced any of the things listed, from "experts" at GS, ranges, or just in general?


The ladies on the forum are obviously working harder than us men so they haven't seen the post yet! :biggrinjester:
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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby SewTexas » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:44 am

I remember back when I was trying to find my initial semi- that many men behind the counter simply didn't talk to me...they talked to my husband, about me! Good way to get me to walk out.

Then, one in Austin, I finally found a Walther that I really had been wanting to look at....The guy had finished up with a man, looked at me, and got a look on his face that looked like he had been sucking on lemons! and wouldn't even pull the gun out of the case, single syllable grunts.....We walked out, I don't think Robert's been back....That's how I ended up with my LCP. It's a good little gun
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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby Mxrdad » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:50 pm

Our Women are awesome and should be treated that way. Without them, we would have killed each other off years ago. That said, I will share a story when I was helping my Mom pick out a handgun for her personal use. The moral of the following story is don't jump to conclusions too fast, kinda like the training we receive. (The person standing over someone on the ground may or not be the bad guy). Although I am full aware there are many men that do claim to know better than others.

My 78 year old mother was absolutely set on purchasing a handgun. The only 1 her husband left her was SW 357 mag that she couldn't handle. I took her to the range and we shot several 9m's and 380's. She could handle both calibers as far as recoil goes, but none of those we shot got her fancy. And of course racking the slide was an important factor too. I let her shoot my Ruger SR1911 45 but after the 1st shot, said nope. I then rented a Sig 228 and she found her gun. When we went back inside, we went to the Counter where the new guns were sold. The guy behind the counter started asking those good questions which is a good thing. He did a really good job regarding that aspect. After the first question, my mom just turned to me and said I don't know what he is talking about so do you mind handling it?

Looking back, I should have told him the whole story about already shooting different guns. But I didn't. It probably would have made me look a little more "open minded". I told him she had her mind made up about the Sig 228. I could see where he might have thought I was pushing her and making her mind up for her. If someone else was listening, they too could have possibly thought I was one of those guys. But we did our homework before hand and knew exactly what we wanted. But only her and I knew that. Again, I should have spent the time explaining we have already been through the weeding out process but we were both tired, it was hot outside, we were hungry and ready to go home. ;-)

I hope to see more women LTC. The women in our family can handle their own when it comes to protecting themselves with hand guns.
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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby Take Down Sicko » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:50 pm

I learned at an early age not to under estimate the ladies. Most of them can fight their weight in wild cats. Hats off to the lady shooters. :tiphat:


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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby Alf » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:00 pm

I can't help but notice most of the posts are by well intentioned men.


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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby SewTexas » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:30 pm

Alf wrote:I can't help but notice most of the posts are by well intentioned men.


That's because 99% of our members are men. I'm the most active lady, there are a couple of others who are less active.
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Jusme
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Re: Tell us your opinions and experiences

Postby Jusme » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:21 am

SewTexas wrote:
Alf wrote:I can't help but notice most of the posts are by well intentioned men.


That's because 99% of our members are men. I'm the most active lady, there are a couple of others who are less active.



I hope more women do weigh in on this, I know I have personally seen and heard a lot of things from store clerks, and others when talking to women about guns. I have not witnessed any outright harassment, or anything like what was posted in the other thread, but I was just curious how often women have to face bias, regarding firearms.

To give credit where it is due, I have also seen clerks and others, treat women with the utmost respect and professionalism, regarding guns, and gun accessories.
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