Here's a different twist on shoot don't shoot.

[Seabear]

Ok, here's a chance for "everyone" to chime in. Most of you know I am a CHL instructor, full time fishing and hunting guide, and former LEO. Put all that aside. Here's the story.

We live on a corner lot in a "mature" neigborhood. I have two Boston Terrorists, I mean Terriers. Behind our house on the side street is our drive way which leads into a really cool covered "two car wide" carport/breezeway which leads to our back yard which has a privacy fence. When we moved here I closed off the breezeway/carport with a 6' tall chain link double gate opening in the center. Hard to explain, but maybe you get it.

Anywho...I was in the back yard with a buddy of mine from across the street having an early evening adult beverage playing with the dogs and making plans for a get together of folks in the hood planned for tomorrow, when all heck broke loose! There was a large female Pit on the outside of my gate raising cain with my Terrorists through the chain link. I have one Terrorist that thinks she is 10' tall and Pit proof and they were going at it through the gate with the smaller Terrorist trying to help out. My buddy and I were trying to seperate them and it just kept escalating. I threw my beverage in the face of the Pit and she backed off for 3 seconds and came back. She kept trying to grab my Boston's feet through the chain link. I hollered for my bud to get the water hose as I kept kicking at the Pit through the gate. (I kicked two major dents in the gate) This dog was insane, I know I made contact with her nose at least 5 times and she didn't care. It was a hair raising 2-3 minutes.

I was finally able to get my Bostons put away and the Pit kept stalking back and forth by the gate and finally took off to harrass another neighbor's dogs.

Now, let me be the first to say.....I like PITS so don't go thinkng it was a mis-judgement thing against pits. Just forget that right now. I have owned one before, and I know it's not the dog, it's the owner.

So here's the deal. When it was all over I said to my bud that I "almost" put a bullet in that dog's head. He said "were you gonna go inside and get your sniper rifle?"

LOL AS we all know, I didn't have to go that far to find a tool for the situation.

It was a very tense situation and many thoughts went through my mind. I was worried that if one of my Bostons let a foot get through the chain link they would loose it. That dang Pit was trying like crazy to connect.

So, would you have shot it?

Could I have shot it through the gate?

Would it be considered a legit shoot since the offending dog was on my property, but outside my gate?

Was there enough risk to my dogs to make it ok?

Hmmmm...many questions.

I'll let you guys and gals dig into this, and then I will tell you MY thought process on it.

By the way, one of my Bostons ended up with a bloody foot with two toe nails/claws broken and turned 90 degrees.

Pile it on and tell me what all the quarterbacks would have done, and you guys who know what was "legal" to do pitch in too. Now I get to be the learning scenario for a change.

[speedsix]

...YES...YES...YES, and YES.... http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/ ... /B/822.013" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Excaliber]

I wasn't there so I don't know if what I'm about to suggest was viable or not, but I'll throw it out there for discussion.

From your description of the situation, it sounds like the chain link fencing was a sufficiently effective barrier that there was little danger of the pits getting past it. If that's the case, the danger to your dogs came from putting body parts close enough to or through the fence and within the reach of the pits. If that is a correct read, the threat could have been effectively mitigated by pulling your dogs back from the fence so they were out of reach of the pits.

This would have relegated the incident to the "no need to shoot" category, which is much easier to manage than the shoot / no shoot.

[longtooth]

hhuuumm. 1 Yes, 1 No. Where's that popcorn eatin icon when you need it???

I will learn too. So far the dog Q has not come up in my class.

[Seabear]

hhuuumm. Where's that popcorn eatin icon when you need it???

I will learn too. So far the dog ? has not come up in my class.

Really? I have had at least 3 people take the class JUST for the dog situation.

[longtooth]

hhuuumm. Where's that popcorn eatin icon when you need it???

I will learn too. So far the dog ? has not come up in my class.

Really? I have had at least 3 people take the class JUST for the dog situation.

Yes sir. AS much as it gets discussed here I have really been surprised that It has not. I may be the only Instructor on the board that has missed that one.

The one really big dog I had difficulty w/ was kinda stupid. Got way off down by a creek durin trappin season & stuck his head in a 12X12 Conabear beaver trap. That is a quick dirt nap.

[apostate]

Perhaps folk in Lufkin don't ask because they don't think twice about their gut response to an aggressive dog that runs at large.

[longtooth]

Prolly right there.

[Seabear]

hhuuumm. The one really big dog I had difficulty w/ was kinda stupid. Stuck his head in a 12X12 Conabear beaver trap. That is a quick dirt nap.

How did that happen????

The last student I had take the class due to dog issues had quite a story. He rides his bicycle for exercise, and while riding one morning he was attacked by two dogs similar to the one I had this evening. He jumped off his bike and was trying to use it to defend himself and block them (he still sustained some injuries). Someone helped out and called the local PD who uppon arrival stepped in and shot one of the attackers and the other ran off. They told him he needed a CHL so he could protect himself next time.

[threoh8]

Just a thought: Dogs learn, and remember. One that was going after another dog at the fence may have another go at it - over the fence next time.

[Texas Dan Mosby]

So, would you have shot it?

No.

Could I have shot it through the gate?

Yes. Most handgun rounds would punch right through chain link, especially at close range. Take a piece to the range with you some time.

Would it be considered a legit shoot since the offending dog was on my property, but outside my gate?

No, because...

Was there enough risk to my dogs to make it ok?

...risk to a dog does not justify the use of deadly force.

Most urban / suburban areas restrict the discharge of firearms, so you would be in the wrong UNLESS you feared for the safety of a human. In the country, however, discharging firearms may not be an issue.

I'd spend some time working on recall training for your dogs. You should be able to call them to you regardless of distraction, and the next time, you may not have a barrier between you and the dog, or the car, or the cliff, or whatever.

[speedsix]

...sorry, but the law disagrees with you, Texas Dan Mosby...being on his own property has no bearing in the case...his dogs happened to be, but had they been out on a leash...same goes...no duty to retreat no reason to "recall" HIS dogs who were already on HIS property...and the pit attacking your dog SPECIFICALLY gives you the right to use deadly force...read the law I linked...that's the whole purpose of the law being written...knowing it may save you from hesitating someday and protecting you and yours...though you may still not choose to shoot...you need to know the law...necessity will overcome the discharging firearms problem...the pit could have easily continued and cleared that fence...had already injured his dogs...it would have been legal to kill it and no legal or civil problems would have arisen...

[speedsix]

I wasn't there so I don't know if what I'm about to suggest was viable or not, but I'll throw it out there for discussion.

From your description of the situation, it sounds like the chain link fencing was a sufficiently effective barrier that there was little danger of the pits getting past it. If that's the case, the danger to your dogs came from putting body parts close enough to or through the fence and within the reach of the pits. If that is a correct read, the threat could have been effectively mitigated by pulling your dogs back from the fence so they were out of reach of the pits.

This would have relegated the incident to the "no need to shoot" category, which is much easier to manage than the shoot / no shoot.

...nope...the whole scene was ON his property...NO need or responsibility to drag his dogs back...they were restrained on his property and the attacker was on his property also...dogs can easily clear a 6' fence...the pit wouldn't have a leg to stand on...literally...that's the same as saying if his dogs were in his yard and the pit came up to the fence on the alley side, that he should take his dogs in the house...his dogs were where they had full right to be...it's not his responsibility to do more...he can choose to stop the attack...as he could if he were in the next block walking his dogs on a leash...and the law doesn't even require that his be leashed with respect to this law...though no doubt a city ordinance would require it...this law is written about animals...we tend to try to parallel it to human terms and it doesn't work that way...

[Texas Dan Mosby]

TEX HS. CODE ANN. § 822.013 : Texas Statutes - Section 822.013: DOGS OR COYOTES THAT ATTACK ANIMALS

(a) A dog or coyote that is attacking, is about to attack, or has recently attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may be killed by:

(1) any person witnessing the attack; or etc...

That's good to know.

Thanks for the link speed.

[speedsix]

...now that I'm done rantin' and ravin'...this subject has become dear to my heart because on two occasions, I have been walking my small dauschund/terrier mix on a leash and he's been attacked...once on the sidewalk directly across from my home, where a dog about 20 pounds larger with no collar or leash came charging down the street and attacked him...I kicked him about a dozen times to get him off my dog...it was a Sunday afternoon...two neighbors witnessed it...the reason I didn't pull my .45 and kill him was that about 1/2 a block away, his owner, a 13-year-old girl was sobbing and pleading for his life...and I'm an old softy...since then, the dog's attacked two other dogs...one a small poodle that the owner grabbed up and held in his arms so the big dog couldn't get to it...next time...there won't be any mercy...the girl's dad and I had a very loud conversation that afternoon when he came down to see why I'd attacked and kicked his dog...the little one lied on me...my witnesses straightened him out and he got the dog a collar and has kept it in 98% of the time...
...the second time, we were daydreaming and he was on my dog before we knew it...a black setter mix 1/3 bigger than mine...he responded to about 4 good kicks from my work boots and ran off...animal control refused to take a report because he asked if the dog'd broken the skin on my dog anywhere...answer was no...he told me that they didn't count it as a bite unless there was breaking of the skin...city policy...I said "Run your arm out the window, then, and we'll see how much pain you feel from my teeth before I break any skin"...he didn't want to play...we were friends but that wasn't a friendly day...he's since retired...I chewed the ear off the police Lt. over the animal control that day...and got to studying the ins and outs of the law...

...I'd rather you bite my wife than my dog...and I may not be kidding...