Church / Daycare / Oh, and Kindergarden

[Kalrog]

The church that we attend also has an "Early Childhood Center" that features daycare for newborn through afterschool elementary daycare. No signs are posted. But today my wife reminded me (I knew it somewhere in the back of my mind but had totally forgotten it as my oldest child is only 3) that the ECC also offeres Kindergarden classes. I know that the entire ECC is accredited for daycare, and I assume that the K program is accredited as well since graduates of that program are able to go on to first grade in the public schools.

So with this as a background - when (if ever) is it permissable for me to CCW on the campus? Some oops may be involved here on my part.

[stevie_d_64]

I kinda had the same concern, and asked Charles about this...

My engineering office is surrounded by a daycare facility...I thought that maybe I would be in violation if I carried in my office or had the firearm locked in my vehicle outside the office in the "common" parking lot...

In that regard I was told and understood that it was not...

In your case, I believe you are thinking that if it is an state organization accredited facility that you are in violation if you carry inside that facility...

I think it skirts the line, similar to the whole "dropping off/picking up" situation...And the premisis statute "txinvestigator" will post here in a few seconds... Which I think helps define and clarify the situation...

If I understand you correctly, are you intending on "hanging out" longer than picking up or dropping off at the daycare???

If so, I think you might have a problem...If the state defines that facility as a "school"...Then definitely...

Its a tough situation to be in, and I always force myself to have a hard time with the issue...I think its wrong to be restricted in these situations, because its un-necessary to disarm in this case...Nobody I know who has a CHL or other license to carry is going to flip out in places like this...

And anyone who has in the past wasn't licensed, or in their right mind to be armed in the first place...But what is a bunch of words on a piece of paper going to do to prevent those incidences...

Don't listen to me...

I think Charles, Tex can quote chapter and verse and help you in that regard...

I don't like living with things that tell me what I can't do...I like to concentrate and live by what I can, and should do...And do it as best I can...

They'll be along shortly...

And I trust what they say...

[Charles L. Cotton]

This subject has come up before and I still wish I had a definitive answer!

Here is a copy of a post I made on the other thread:

What about the other way around? A church with a school. I assume that all church buildings are off limits.

What about "Vacation Bible School"? All churches seem to have them at least one week a year. I would consider this to be a church service, much like "Sunday School", thus legal to carry.

I've been asked this question several times; I wish I had a good answer. All church buildings are off-limits, but only if a 30.06 compliant sign is posted at each entrance. As you know, schools are off-limits regardless whether a 30.06 sign is posted. Sunday school and VBS are interesting questions. "Schools" are not defined in the Penal Code, so rules regarding statutory construction require us to use the common ordinary definition of school. This would support the argument that the prohibition applies only to "traditional" schools; i.e. K through 12th grade, plus colleges and universities.

That said, I've seen the argument made that any place that "teaches" is a school, including real estate schools, A&P schools, etc. I am not aware of cases supporting this contention, but I haven't done much research in that issue either. If only practicing (civil) law didn’t take up so much time . . .

Regards,
Chas.

Here is a link to the entire thread: http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... highlight=

Regards,
Chas.

[Kalrog]

Most of the time (5 days a week) I am just interrested in dropping off / picking up the kids. But I do have to go into (at least) one of the buildings on campus - one of the kids is almost always on the playground when I pick them up.

But one day a week (Sunday) I certainly stay longer than a drop off / pick up situation. I stay for probably 90 minutes - maybe 2 hours - for the church service.

Does it make a difference that the campus is essentially divided into 5 buildings - of which I use 3 of them.

1) The sanctuary. No school functions here, just church services.
2) The office building. Most of the daycare stuff is here, but it also has the offices for the employees.
3) The infant / todler room. No school function here either.
4) The youth building. I don't go here, but no school functions here.
5) A free clinic Dr. office. Never been in there, but no school functions here either.

[Kalrog]

Wait a second! I might just have found the loophole I need!

From http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes ... 046.00.htm

§ 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person
commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or
recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club,
or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or
educational institution, any grounds or building on which an
activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being
conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or
educational institution, whether the school or educational
institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written
regulations or written authorization of the institution;

Everbody see that last line? "unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;" I just gotta get a note from the teacher (ECC Director in this case). That would (should) clear everything up, right? No grey areay then... And yes, I think she might just be willing to give me that. Heck, her son shot a deer out of their bathroom window last year and she "made" him stay home from school until he got it butchered. The school made it an excused tardy... Gotta love this town!

[Charles L. Cotton]

Even if any portion of the church were to constitute a "school" for our discussion purposes, it would not transform the entire complex into a school. Further, if “school� activities are conducted only Monday through Friday in a portion of a building, then the rest of the building(s) should not be off-limits. (See Tex. Penal Code §46.03(c)(1) adopting the definition of “premises� set forth in Tex. Penal Code §46.035(f)(3) "Premises" is defined with the phrase "building or portion of a building" . . .)

As I stated above, I believe “schools� are traditional primary and secondary school (K through 12th grade, plus colleges and universities), per Tex. Gov’t Code §311.011, that is quoted below. These rules of statutory construction were expressly adopted by the Penal Code in Tex. Penal Code §1.05(b).

I believe this issue may be addressed in 2007.

Regards,
Chas.



§ 311.011. COMMON AND TECHNICAL USAGE OF WORDS. (a) Words and phrases shall be read in context and construed according to the rules of grammar and common usage.
(b) Words and phrases that have acquired a technical or particular meaning, whether by legislative definition or otherwise, shall be construed accordingly.

[stevie_d_64]

Charles...

I think the "entire complex" comment says it all, and thats why I think I'm ok where my office is...At least when you explained it to me a while back thats what made sense to me...

Like you, I'm not sure about Kalrog's situation...

I think if he ever got a note from the "teacher" that it was ok for him to carry in the facility, he'd be the man of the year in my opinion!

Right???

[stevie_d_64]

I believe this issue may be addressed in 2007.

I am taking that for gospel...

I think its good that they should further define, clarify and rectify certain things about the law...

I think the ball got started rolling this last session, and in 2007, I think we should be prepared for some very interesting and spirited debate in 2007...

At least with folks like Charles and some others really pushing these ideas through is a positive and productive endeavour...