I caught one... now what? (scenario)

[HankB]

A few things to consider . . .

1. When you first saw an armed intruder in your house, why were you talking and not shooting?

2. How do you know - and I mean know - the bad guy is alone?

3. How much risk are you willing to assume for yourself and your family on behalf of the bad guy?

[one eyed fatman]

New postby NAVY CHIEF » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:08 pm
This is why I like this forum as opposed to other CCW/CHL ones. They NEVER get back to you, but y'all always do! I love it! Thanks to all respondents so far and in the future - you truly are the best shooters a friend could ask for!

Just make sure you listen to the right advise as the wrong advise could cause you great pain or death.

[C-dub]

HankB, #1 is also what I was wondering.

After that, if we find ourselves in the scenario described by the OP I have a couple of possibilities. First, I do not own a pair of handcuffs, but this is making me think about getting some. The BG has re-thought his position, tossed their gun on the ground, and surrendered. What about tossing them the handcuffs and having them handcuff themselves to a large object they would be unable to just run off with or just handcuffing a wrist to an ankle? Away from the gun, of course.

[joe817]

It just makes sense to me, that unless you are specifically TRAINED in subdue tactics, that once you have the "drop" on the b.g. the next thing would be to tell him to just lie on the ground, spread eagle with your sights trained on him, and just wait it out for the professionals to come in and do what they are trained to do. And if b.g. is stupid enough to challenge you, be far enough away from them to be able to "stop the threat" immediately.

In this scenario, distance is your friend. Coming into close proximity, or to even have contact in any form with the b.g., could give him an opportunity that could go horribly wrong for you.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[C-dub]

In this scenario, distance is your friend. Coming into close proximity, or to even have contact in any form with the b.g., could give him an opportunity that could go horribly wrong for you.

Exactly. That's why I was wondering if getting the BG to secure himself would be a more acceptable option. If he didn't want to I could argue that if he did we could both relax just a little bit and that might prevent him from getting shot. If he's already tossed his weapon he might see the logic in this and comply.

[joe817]

In this scenario, distance is your friend. Coming into close proximity, or to even have contact in any form with the b.g., could give him an opportunity that could go horribly wrong for you.

Exactly. That's why I was wondering if getting the BG to secure himself would be a more acceptable option. If he didn't want to I could argue that if he did we could both relax just a little bit and that might prevent him from getting shot. If he's already tossed his weapon he might see the logic in this and comply.

C-dub, you are entirely a reasonable man. But we'd be dealing with someone who has an entirely different mindset than you and I. Trying to reason, or converse/convince someone to do something that is probably totally contrary to the mindset of the b.g. would only lead to a "conversation"....something that could be distracting. Distraction is a ploy used very effectively used by everyone. In this instance, ANY distraction could lead to disastrous consequences.

Of course this is how I would handle it......or how I envision I'd handle it. I wouldn't want to say 2 words to that person...not 2 words. I think(and it's only my opinion) that ANYTHING that takes my 100% focus on keeping the b.g. subdued until the calvary shows up, only works to my detriment. I really wouldn't want to handle it any other way, considering my lack of specific training....just keep my distance, with my sights on him, and my finger on the trigger, until help arrives.

IAMAL, YMMV, and one has to work out what is best for him/her under the circumstances. What I've said above would work for me.

[srothstein]

Navy Chief, thanks for asking this question. It is one everyone should consider. I have no problem with not shooting the BG as soon as you saw he was armed. I fully understand how most people would prefer that everyone leaves the scene safely (you to bed, him to jail).

So, my first advice is to not say or yell anything that would get him to freeze or be taken that way. Instead yell something along the lines of "What are you doing?" This will get him to turn to you and see you are armed and aimed at him. If he freezes anyway, we will handle it but most BG's are going to try to run. In most cases, I advise allowing him to run while you are (or someone else in the house is already) calling the police. Give them the description and let them find him.

But if he does freeze and surrender, you need to be prepared with what you are going to do next. With your training, you might be better prepared than most for this situation. Give orders in your command voice (the one that shows you know he WILL obey, just like a boot seaman would). Getting him spread eagle on the ground is easier but the position described above (on knees, ankles crossed, hands on head with fingers interlaced) is more secure. If he does this, you then move around him so you are behind him. Stay as far from him as you reasonably can. Behind him puts you out of his sight and makes it harder for him to suddenly attack you. Hopefully, someone else in the house is already calling the police for you and you just concentrate on the BG. If you have to call the police, don't do it until you are sure you are in a fairly secure position (behind him with him down in either position). NEVER stop paying attention to him, especially while on the phone. And make sure that you, or the person calling for you, tell them that you are the homeowner and that you are holding the suspect at gun point. Give them your description if you can and get your family member to unlock the front door and step outside to watch for the police. The family member can then make sure the officers actually on the scene know you are the good guy. AND OBEY ANYTHING the officers responding say, without question or hesitation. We want to avoid shooting the wrong person (well, we want to avoid shooting anyone but especially the home owner).

[Photoman]

I would cover them, low ready, and plus one (look for others) the area. I would NEVER try to restrain them. Once the situation has settled down, call the police if a family member has not already done so.

[lonewolf]

My training is pretty much as described as above. Put them in a position that is difficult, awkward and/or unbalanced that they will have a difficult time getting out of easily. On knees as described above is a very good choice. Don't try to cuff them or use wire ties or anything like that. If they decide to act, you are in a position of reacting, never good. Stay out of reach, contact LE, keep them covered well, and don't let your eyes off of them.

All good stuff.

Tossing a set of cuffs to him and telling him to cuff himself exposes you to having the cuffs thrown back at your face while he lunges at you. You might think you are ready, but your first instinct is to duck. By then he is on you. Although I'm not a LEO, I'll bet LEOs would rather have a partner cuff while they cover, or vice versa. Single handed restraint is very dangerous.

[C-dub]

Tossing a set of cuffs to him and telling him to cuff himself exposes you to having the cuffs thrown back at your face while he lunges at you. You might think you are ready, but your first instinct is to duck. By then he is on you. Although I'm not a LEO, I'll bet LEOs would rather have a partner cuff while they cover, or vice versa. Single handed restraint is very dangerous.

True. Something I hadn't considered.
What was I thinking, injecting logic into a situation that started by someone with a complete disregard for my personal property and safety? My bad!

[joe817]

Tossing a set of cuffs to him and telling him to cuff himself exposes you to having the cuffs thrown back at your face while he lunges at you. You might think you are ready, but your first instinct is to duck. By then he is on you. Although I'm not a LEO, I'll bet LEOs would rather have a partner cuff while they cover, or vice versa. Single handed restraint is very dangerous.

True. Something I hadn't considered.
What was I thinking, injecting logic into a situation that started by someone with a complete disregard for my personal property and safety? My bad!

No C-dub.....your good! Had you not asked that question, we might not have received this invaluable input that we have. As far as I'm concerned, this is stuff I need. Excellent question sir. And excellent answers and thoughts forum members!

We come here to learn about things like this happening to us, and what to do when it does, and we all jump in and give an opinion, and we learn. This is the essence of this forum. Thank you everyone !

[lonewolf]

The truth is that we can "what if" things to death, while beating a dead horse into the ground, and that's a good thing. This all very good information and insight into this situation, and we will all take things from it. Things we may use and things we may not. Considering the consequences of our actions is inherent in having a CHL. The ultimate in consideration of consequences for actions.

Consider every possible consequence and ask for more. When/if the time comes, I hope I have considered everything possible so I can make the right choice for that situation. If I am ever in a SD situation, you can rest assured that I will be "What iffing" for a long time to come after. Part of the territory. Part of learning. The more "what iffing" I do now hopefully means less "what iffing" later.

Golly, I must be in "Philosophy" mode tonight. My apologies for rambling.....

[joe817]

You never need to apologize to us Lonewolf. Your wife maybe but not us.

You give well thought out and logical answers to some tough questions. All I can say is I'm glad you're on my side! (and vice versa)

[RocTrac]

Just curious, what is your Wife's roll in this? I had never thought about it till I read it in last months combat handgun. Why not take a tactical course with your Wife as your partner? Who better to cover your 6 and dial 911. With a intruder covered from 2 directions it is less likely to do something stupid and if it rushes one or the other it can be caught in the crossfire. In Mama Lotties time the whole family fought together children reloading and Daddy Fred and Mamma Lottie did the fighting. I have 4 children and will do anything to stack the odds in my families favor. Just a thought.
Carl

[lonewolf]

Let's just say that I am the primary in this. She can shoot (barely) but really has no business with a gun right now, although she supports me in the CHL universe and I have my weapon accessible at night as well. I won't have her put restraints on the subject as I don't want her to become the hostage. The subject can just stay put and do as I say while my spouse is calling 911.