A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

[gemini]

STATE FAIR DISAPPOINTMENT

Warning: This is a very long post. Sorry.

I arranged to cut my work day short, my wife left her job early, a good friend
and his wife also cut their work day short, in order to attend this years Fair together.
We arrived at the Fair grounds today, about 4:45pm. We parked in a on premise
Fair parking lot and proceeded to the entry gate from the parking lot.

At the entry gate I was wanded by the attendant. I had my CHL out and was displaying
it to her. She was oblivious until she heard the beep, saw the CHL and exclaimed (rather
loudly) “do you have a concealed weapon on you”? The next words out of her mouth were
“I have to write down your information”. I stated “all I needed to do was speak with the officer”
(seated in an elevated chair / umbrella) and pointed in his direction. She hastily went to his
stand and stated “he has a CHL” and “I am supposed to write down his ID and information”.
The officer asked for my CHL, I showed it to him and he stated “that wasn’t (writing down the info)
necessary”, and handed it back to me. NOW THE PROBLEM BEGINS!:

The gate attendant stated (to the officer) that she “had been told by the gate supervisor to write down
everyones ID and information if they enter with a CHL or they are NOT allowed entry into the
Fair grounds”. I told the officer that “I would not give her any of my personal information. It’s not
required by law, and I don’t think it’s legal for them to be collecting the type of information they are
requiring for entry”. He actually nodded in agreement, but decided to contact a gate supervisor. I waited
about 7 minutes for a “supervisor” (named Don) to arrive.
Don was adament. “No ID and information, no entry into the Fair”. Don stated “the Fair was private
property and collecting the information was their policy”. I stated it was “government property”.He
then walked away. I continued speaking with the officer (in the elevated seat) about information
privacy, CHL, ID theft etc etc. We actually had very similar views. However, he said he had to go by
the “policy”. The gate attendant and gate supervisor (Don) had rather abrasive attitudes.
*I want to stress that at no time was the uniformed Dallas Police Officer Burke rude, or offensive in any way.
He seemed like a nice guy that was just “following company policy” so to speak.


Next thing I know a man described as Head of Security pulls up on a little scooter. His name was
Steve Ledbetter. Dismounts his mighty mini-steed and walks over to me. (I guess Don didn’t like my
refusal to illegally take my personal info and had called for backup). Head of Security says “it’s their
policy. Either allow them to record my information or leave. Or go put it back in your car”. I replied “I
will not allow my personal information, my CHL number, my SSN, my guns serial number or anything
else to be recorded”. He then proceeded to tell me that they (the Fair) had numerous “incidents” with
CHL holders that caused a lot of problems at the Fair. That CHL holders had lost guns on rides and that
Fair officials had found them the following day. They needed the information in case you “lost” your gun
…so they’d know who to return it too. Then he tried to relate how a guns/CHL registration (logged info
with Fair gate keeper) and an automobile registration were similar because you could just sell a gun but
would have to register a car to sell it. I finally responded “I don’t see any connection there, and I’m not
sure where this is going or how it relates”. He stated “this is their policy (I’d heard that line before), they
rent the Fair for 24 days each year , they’re a private company and that’s it”.

The rest of the story: The 3 others in my party had already paid admission and were waiting for my
ordeal to end. When I told them what had transpired, they were not willing to attend the Fair without
me. I had already called one of my sons to be ready to come pick me up so the others could still attend.
Nothing doing, they understood my position and fully supported my decision to not attend the Fair
under these circumstances.

BeforeHead of Security could exit the immediate area, I asked that the monies paid by my friends be
refunded. He had to call another man to the gate to issue the refund. The ticket booth operator was not
authorized to make refunds. So, we wait about 15 minutes. A very nice older gentleman arrived, and we
got our refund. *this gentleman was very nice and apologetic
Time was now 6:05pm.

**One note I need to make clear: At NO time did I raise my voice, cuss, disrespect or threaten
anyone during this entire fiasco. However, by the time the gate supervisor, gate attendant and
head of security were through calling each other on 2 way radio’s etc…..pretty much everyone in the
gate area knew I had a CHL and was carrying a weapon and what the commotion was about. This did
not make me happy. They handled nothing discretely.

We left the Fair, I took everyone to eat at an upscale Mexican restaurant, my treat.

I have a call in to my attorney re: a possible civil rights violation.
I will be calling Joe Driver, Allan Vought, Mark Davis and a few others in the morning.

To some it may be a wasted trip, time and money. I know my wife and I were disappointed, as were
the couple we were with. Lost wages from work etc. Some may not make the effort to refuse their
personal info be recorded by Fair personnel. I am going to stay with this until it is resolved. I attended
the last Fair with no problems. No, I am not a happy camper. No one with a valid CHL should have to
go through this type of abuse. Post the required legal signage banning carry if allowed to by law,
but don’t make policy or company law or regulations that supercede state law and violate my
individual rights.

If you’ve made it this far reading…….I thank you for your time and for lending me an ear to vent.
I welcome constructive suggestions and/or constructive criticism.

[shootthesheet]

If you have the time and money I think you should go for it. I don't think you can get far on a civil rights violation but you may be able to force them to properly educate their personnel or post signs. I think you did the right thing and were correct. I am not letting a non-LEO write down anything. That is an invitation to theft. I wouldn't have put up with it and hope you are able to change their "policy".

[Rex B]

Good for you for sticking to your guns (so to speak).
I was off on Oct 1, and we briefly discussed going to the fair.
glad we did not - and will not!

[tah]

From the Fair's FAQ section on items you may bring into the grounds -

a gun? No, with one exception.
A person holding a valid concealed handgun license is permitted to enter onto State Fair property with his/her concealed handgun. Licenses will be examined at the entrance by an authorized security supervisor. Handguns will not be permitted inside the Cotton Bowl, a facility defined under Texas Penal Code 46.035 as "the premises where a high school, collegiate or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place." We want the Fair to be a fun and safe experience.
Link - http://www.bigtex.com/generalinfo/faqs/bring.asp

Note the wording "licenses will be examined". If they are going to take down your life history, then they should say so in writing so you know what is up before you get there.

And I'm having real trouble with the excuse that a lot of CHL people lose their guns on rides only to be found the next day. Wouldn't you immediately know your gun was missing?

And why would the State Fair want to be responsible for getting your firearm back to you? I'm sure DPD would be glad to run the serial numbers on lost guns if only to bust somebody for no longer having a "concealed" handgun

Secondly, what does the State Fair do with guns that don't match up to their CHL list? Surely they are not stupid enough to believe that people aren't sneaking guns onto their property. There is more than one way to get onto the grounds without having to be wanded. And I'm not about to give away the secret on a public forum either.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

gemini:

So sorry that you had this bad problem at the State Fair.

Elsewhere on the forum, someone had asked about State Fair carry, and the
response was that you just had to show your CHL to the cop on the Q.T., then you
could go in. Your experience was quite an eyeopener.

Good luck with your legal actions against the State Fair.

Plus, your post is a great heads up to those of us who were considering going
armed to the State Fair.

SIA

[03Lightningrocks]

That just flat out ticks me off. Surely something can be done about this. How does any of this work within the law? My suspicion is some little Nazi is in charge somewhere along the chain and they don't like CHL's so they are acting like fools to them.

[Beiruty]

I am sure, that a judge will side with privacy of the CHLer as long as he shows as CHL when asked.

[Pete92FS]

This might be a case where you win the battle but lose the war. You have enough CHL's complain about their information gathering policy they will either give in or just post it 30.06.

[Keith B]

The statement about a CHL losing a gun, them finding it the next day and needing to have their contact info is garbage. IF a CHL lost his gun, THEN they would provide information on the weapon type and probably serial number, and contact info. Prior to that, there is no reason they need to record your info. Sorry you had to abandon your State Fair visit, but pushing the issue and handling it as you did is the way to get things like this corrected and clarified.

I know you have contacted a lawyer. If it was me, I would be immediately contacting the main office, and getting the name of the Chairman of their Board of Directors and then name of their General Counsel (lawyer) and contacting them ASAP. I think this policy can be quickly nipped in the bud when they find out what is going on. If they refuse to stop collecting the information, then it may need to go to a legal battle.

[Rusty]

I am not siding with the State Fair,but a Judge might.He may decide that even if the 30.06 sign was not posted,you received "effective notice" verbally when you were told that you may not enter without complying with State Fair policy.Again,I think that this a disgusting policy,and if you persue it,I hope you win.

[dicion]

This might be a case where you win the battle but lose the war. You have enough CHL's complain about their information gathering policy they will either give in or just post it 30.06.

Ah, but they cannot post 30.06.

The fairgrounds is gov't owned, even if it is leased out to a private company for 24 days a year. Government owned property is an exception to 30.06.

[dicion]

I am not siding with the State Fair,but a Judge might.He may decide that even if the 30.06 sign was not posted,you received "effective notice" verbally when you were told that you may not enter without complying with State Fair policy.Again,I think that this a disgusting policy,and if you persue it,I hope you win.

See above. Government owned property. 30.06 does not apply, even verbal warning.

[Pete92FS]

I am not siding with the State Fair,but a Judge might.He may decide that even if the 30.06 sign was not posted,you received "effective notice" verbally when you were told that you may not enter without complying with State Fair policy.Again,I think that this a disgusting policy,and if you persue it,I hope you win.

See above. Government owned property. 30.06 does not apply, even verbal warning.

It might be goverment property but head of security stated “they rent the Fair for 24 days each year , they’re a private company and that’s it”.
I didn't know the state fair was a private entity. Wouldn't this be the same as a 30.06 being posted at the George R. Brown Convention Center during a gun show?

[dicion]

I am not siding with the State Fair,but a Judge might.He may decide that even if the 30.06 sign was not posted,you received "effective notice" verbally when you were told that you may not enter without complying with State Fair policy.Again,I think that this a disgusting policy,and if you persue it,I hope you win.

See above. Government owned property. 30.06 does not apply, even verbal warning.

It might be goverment property but head of security stated “they rent the Fair for 24 days each year , they’re a private company and that’s it”.
I didn't know the state fair was a private entity. Wouldn't this be the same as a 30.06 being posted at the George R. Brown Convention Center during a gun show?

Correct, which has also been mentioned as an invalid posting.
Not saying you won't take the ride, but by law, it's invalid.

Sounds like their head of security needs to read up on the laws he's pretending he knows about.
Maybe someone should take him a copy of 30.06, specifically with (e) bolded, along with a tax record of the land that shows who owns it.

[gemini]

Just a quick note for those that have commented or are following this thread:
I have sent emails to a few state representative seeking clarification on state law etc.
Email to Mark Davis (WBAP) describing the situation.
I personally spoke with the General Manager of the Fair's secretary regarding the issue of,
are they requiring CHL and personal info to be taken at the gate. Her response was YES it
will be entered into a log by a person at the gate. The office number is 214-421-8730 in case
anyone doubts this policy.

I would love to sit here all day long and persue this but I have a job and have to go to work.