Drew on a guy today

[priusron]

We were on the way to church and saw a vehicle backing into a driveway leading to a pasture, up against the fence. His front tires were just off the pavement. I watched him in my rearview mirror and it looked like he was dumping trash. I turned around and went back up the road and stopped in front of his truck, drivers side towards his vehicle. Wife and adult daughter were in the truck with me, all three CHL, I was the only one carrying. He was still dumping trash and I told my wife to call 911. I removed my weapon from the holster (left side) and placed in in my right hand on my lap covered with my left hand. He asked what we were doing, I replied we were calling the police. He stated that he was just cleaning his truck up and proceeded to pickup his trash and put it in his truck. He then got in his truck and started rummaging around. The wife was on the phone trying to tell the SO where we were. We were in the city limits but the SO dispatchers are stupid and dont transfer appropriately, even when you tell them what department you want. He came out of his vehicle with his cell phone in his hand. He then started approaching my vehicle and got about 5 ft from the door when I leveled my gun and very loudly ordered him to get away from the vehicle, take his hands out of his pockets, step back. I then instructed my wife to tell 911 that I had my gun on the guy. He stepped back and started mouthing off. He then started reaching into the door and I loudly ordered him to get away from his door and to close the door. He started walking towards the front of my truck and I loudly ordered him back beside his truck. About this time the SO came up the road to my rear. He pulled in front of me, I re-holstered my gun, and pulled out my Id and approached the officer holding out my ID. The guy said "He pulled a gun on me". I told the officer what happened and he asked where my gun was. I pointed to my left hip and said right here. The guy admitted to dumping trash had picked it back up. After checking him and me out, he let us go. He never asked to see my weapon or told me that I was in the wrong for displaying my weapon.

Things that went through my mind:
I'm going to be late for church.
Tell wife to call 911
Give license number at beginning of call
If he tries to drive over my truck (not likely as I am larger than him) I will fire until empty through the windshield
When gun cam into play, give commands very loudly so subject and 911 can hear the commands.
Consciously told my self to keep finger of the trigger to prevent accidental discharge, It was lightly touching trigger and I became aware of it.
Afterwards I realized that I did not consciously raise my weapon, it was just there at the right time, I believe this is due to mind training.

6 hours later still feeling anxious from adrenaline.

Ron

[surprise_i'm_armed]

priusron:

Well it sounds like you had a pretty exciting day!

Glad everything turned out OK.

Do you think it's now time for all CHL's in your family to carry 24/7?
If he had drawn on you and fired, your whole family could have been killed.

They've got plastic. There's no reason they shouldn't have their guns on them.

SIA

[priusron]

My daughter was visiting from oregon (she is a student) and her gun is in oregon. She will be getting a crossbread supertuck for her birthday this month. My wife does not fire her weapon enough to be familiar with it, but after the first of the year, we will be going to the range weekly. I will probably get here a concealed carry purse. Nowdays, you need to carry at any walmart so she needs to get very familiar with it and start carrying.

Ron

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Ron,

Thanks for the update. I didn't realize your daughter had an out of state
travel issue with which to deal.

After all the talk about how much of a legal hassle it can be to draw on
someone, I am pleasantly shocked that the LEO just talked with you and
let you go. I guess you live in the country, not Travis or Harris counties! :-)

SIA

[dicion]

Hate to rain on your parade, but I am of the opinion that you were in the wrong here, with respect to drawing your handgun.

I don't see littering anywhere in the force statutes, let alone the deadly force statutes.
Sure, you could claim that he approached your vehicle in a threatening manner, but he could claim that you instigated it by blocking him in.
Other than approaching your vehicle, he did nothing that justified any kind of force.
As far as him littering, you're lucky he admitted to it, as it was his word versus yours. Both on scene, and in court.

For an example, spin the tables.

You're backed up to a fence area of your property that you own. Someone has dumped some trash there, and you're there cleaning it up.
Out of nowhere, some guy pulls in front of you, blocking you in. When you approach him to ask him what the heck he's doing, he pulls a gun on you.
In this situation, I would feel that *I* was justified to unload on this guy, since I was on my property, doing my own business, and he randomly pulled a gun on me for no reason.

You're lucky that the Sheriff's Officer didn't cuff you right there.

This is definitely a case where you should have just gotten his License Plate number, and reported it to police. No need to go Vigilante, and try to play Officer of the Law.
CHL Holders are not police. It is not your job to stop people in the commission of a crime. We get CHL's to protect ourselves, and our loved ones. What he was doing was no violent threat to anyone. By blocking him in, and pulling your handgun on him, you changed it from a petty littering scenario to a deadly force scenario, potentially putting your family at an even GREATER risk. If the guy had been armed, and was a CHL holder as well, chances are there would have been bullets flying through the air.

Just my opinion.

[priusron]

No vigilante involved. I am not talking what if games. This thread is about what happened. It was not his property. The owners are black, this guy was white. He was still dumping garbage when I pulled up. I only leveled at him because he had rummaged around in his vehicle and had started mouthing off at me (talking aggressively). I am old (51) and fat. I do not do fights. He had no reason to approach my vehicle. I felt threatened by his approaching my vehicle. I had a legal right to be there doing what I was doing (watching). He had no right to be doing what he was doing. The SO could not cite him because he had picked up the garbage and the property owner was not there.

Ron

[hheremtp]

Hate to rain on your parade, but I am of the opinion that you were in the wrong here, with respect to drawing your handgun.

I don't see littering anywhere in the force statutes, let alone the deadly force statutes.
Sure, you could claim that he approached your vehicle in a threatening manner, but he could claim that you instigated it by blocking him in.
Other than approaching your vehicle, he did nothing that justified any kind of force.
As far as him littering, you're lucky he admitted to it, as it was his word versus yours. Both on scene, and in court.

For an example, spin the tables.

You're backed up to a fence area of your property that you own. Someone has dumped some trash there, and you're there cleaning it up.
Out of nowhere, some guy pulls in front of you, blocking you in. When you approach him to ask him what the heck he's doing, he pulls a gun on you.
In this situation, I would feel that *I* was justified to unload on this guy, since I was on my property, doing my own business, and he randomly pulled a gun on me for no reason.

You're lucky that the Sheriff's Officer didn't cuff you right there.

This is definitely a case where you should have just gotten his License Plate number, and reported it to police. No need to go Vigilante, and try to play Officer of the Law.
CHL Holders are not police. It is not your job to stop people in the commission of a crime. We get CHL's to protect ourselves, and our loved ones. What he was doing was no violent threat to anyone. By blocking him in, and pulling your handgun on him, you changed it from a petty littering scenario to a deadly force scenario, potentially putting your family at an even GREATER risk. If the guy had been armed, and was a CHL holder as well, chances are there would have been bullets flying through the air.

Just my opinion.

I hate to agree with Dicion but I must. I do not see anywhere in that story where the use of deadly force would have been warranted. Think about it this way, is it worth killing someone over some trash on the side of the road. I think you are very lucky that you are not trying to post bail right now. You probably would have been better served by stopping further away from the person, recording his plate # and calling the cops.

[dicion]

I only leveled at him because he had rummaged around in his vehicle and had started mouthing off at me (talking aggressively). I am old (51) and fat. I do not do fights. He had no reason to approach my vehicle. I felt threatened by his approaching my vehicle.

Ron

Rummaging around in one's vehicle is not anywhere in the force statutes either.
Maybe he was looking for his phone to call the police on you?

Talking aggressively IS actually mentioned there, however...

(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;

... it is specifically mentioned as NOT a reason to use force.

As far as not having a reason to approach your vehicle, you admitted that you blocked him in.
As far as feeling threatened by him approaching your vehicle, do you not think that HE felt threatened by you blocking him in, preventing his escape?

[Oldgringo]

IANAL, IMHO, YMMV, etc., etc. Having said that, I must agree with dicion for all of his reasons PLUS what if the SO who showed up was a relative of Bubba the Dumper? Y'all could have ended up in a world of hurt, physically as well as financially.

[priusron]

I am a believer in be a good witness. But most of the time, nothing is done. Follow a driver that is all over the road and call lit in. When he is stopped and tell the officer he was texting, he is let go. Texting is not illegal in many parts of texas. Trash dumpers will not be prosecuted unless the property owner presses charges. I am tired of my road looking like a dump.

Ron

[Keith B]

I am a believer in be a good witness. But most of the time, nothing is done. Follow a driver that is all over the road and call lit in. When he is stopped and tell the officer he was texting, he is let go. Texting is not illegal in many parts of texas. Trash dumpers will not be prosecuted unless the property owner presses charges. I am tired of my road looking like a dump.

Ron

I have to agree with the other posters. I am sure you get tired of people dumping trash, and understand your frustration. However, this is a time when I feel following your first statement above would have been the best bet; get the guys license number, take a photo with a cell phone of him dumping trash, and let the SO take care of the citation. This could have really turned ugly. Luckily things worked out OK and apparently the Deputy decided not to force the issue of illegal use of force.

[couzin]

Hate to rain on your parade, but I am of the opinion that you were in the wrong here, with respect to drawing your handgun.

Yup - gotta agree. You left 'being a good witness' in the weeds. Plus - you having come up with a firearm coulda got you in a heckofva s..tstorm if the other driver had managed to either have a weapon on him, or something even bigger in the truck! I am not sure you would have had a defense to prosecution with regard to your actions. You were putting your family in danger over some trash. Drive back by the vehicle and take a picture and pass it to the proper authorities. I really dislike those dumpers as well, and poachers too, but I won't draw down on one for it.

[arod757]

I have to agree with Dicion on this one as well. If it had been my property, then maybe I would have reacted as you did. Otherwise, I just would have written his license plate down and had the wife call 911 on the way to mass and reported his littering butt. I'm a big believer in "Don't Mess With Texas," but not enough to risk a possible confrontation that could lead to me drawing my weapon.

[C-dub]

I am very glad that it turned out okay for everyone, but I also think that you confronting him is what escalated the whole situation. Stop, snap a photo with a cell phone that nearly all have cameras in them, and then back off a bit and call the police. Call the police first and then snap the photo, whatever. It's been said many times and it sounds like you're even aware that we are not in any capacity LE. However, this is what you did on some level just for someone littering. We've all made mistakes and it's likely that we'll all make more in the future, but this one could have turned very bad over trash that wasn't even on your property.

I do thank you for posting your experience. It really makes me think about the things that I do and hopefully I will have the time to think about what I'm about to do before I draw my weapon. There might be a time when I won't have the time to think, but in that instance I will more than likely be justified. It's the times like this one where because I had the time there was probably a better way to handle this situation. Not that you weren't justified in pulling your weapon because you felt threatened, everyone remember the 20 foot rule, but there was definitely a safer way this could have been handled so that you wouldn't have had to draw your weapon.

Respectfully,
C-dub

[Excaliber]

I am a believer in be a good witness. But most of the time, nothing is done. Follow a driver that is all over the road and call lit in. When he is stopped and tell the officer he was texting, he is let go. Texting is not illegal in many parts of texas. Trash dumpers will not be prosecuted unless the property owner presses charges. I am tired of my road looking like a dump.

Ron

I have to agree with the other posters. I am sure you get tired of people dumping trash, and understand your frustration. However, this is a time when I feel following your first statement above would have been the best bet; get the guys license number, take a photo with a cell phone of him dumping trash, and let the SO take care of the citation. This could have really turned ugly. Luckily things worked out OK and apparently the Deputy decided not to force the issue of illegal use of force.

I solidly agree with Keith B, Dicion and the others here. From the OP's account, he escalated what was a minor nonviolent offense into a situation where, if the account as reported is complete, deadly force was threatened without legal justification.

He also unnecessarily placed his family in an extremely dangerous situation where they were at high risk of being badly injured or killed as a direct result of actions the OP himself initiated.

This situation is an example of the fact that good intentions don't necessarily produce good judgment.

The OP is fortunate indeed that this turned out with no shots fired and no arrests.

I understand how easily something like this can go the way it did here, and I thank the OP for posting it so we all can learn without repeating the circumstances ourselves. It's a cautionary tale for the importance of having plans and action thresholds consistent with the law thought out ahead of time so excitement doesn't overwhelm the thinking process and lead to actions that will be greatly regretted when the adrenaline wears off.