Since alot of us go to church...

[gigag04]

This is NOT a religious debate, but I question I have been thinking through.

I am of the impression that I don't think Christians are supposed to defend themselves against persecution. Persecution has always been the thing that planted the church, and got people more serious about Jesus.

That said, I don't think I'm going to carry to church anymore. My roommates and I were thinking this through the other night and I came to this realization.

I'd be interested in hearing some other thoughts, church-going or not.

Thanks,

-nick

[txinvestigator]

What has persecution got to do with defending yourself against a deadly assault while you are in church?????

And I believe you are wrong about the persecution thing in general, I will not debate that here at your request.

If you believe your conclusion, why carry at all, anywhere? In fact, find your nearest Muslim terrorist who wants to kill you just because you are a Christian and surrender yourself to him/her.

I believe I have a moral obligation from God to protect my family. I will do so, even in Church. Self defense is allowed.

[anygunanywhere]

Defending yourself, your family, and your friends has nothing to do with being persecuted as a Christian, and defending yourself from criminal attack is not time to "turn the other cheek" as Jesus preached. If you really trust in Jesus, and walk in His ways, you will know when you are being persecuted for your faith, and when you are being attacked because you are looked upon as prey. Your intentions are admirable, but you must pursue a better understanding of your responsibilities, and defense of self, friends, and families, as well as the unborn, and helpless is a calling, as well as suffering for your faith. Leviticus tells us there is a time for everything and everything in it's time. Learn how to tell time.

[Braden]

This is NOT a religious debate, but I question I have been thinking through.

I am of the impression that I don't think Christians are supposed to defend themselves against persecution. Persecution has always been the thing that planted the church, and got people more serious about Jesus.

That said, I don't think I'm going to carry to church anymore. My roommates and I were thinking this through the other night and I came to this realization.

I'd be interested in hearing some other thoughts, church-going or not.

Thanks,

-nick

Persecution is one thing. The threat of death is another.

In my opinion, Christians are not persecuted here in America like they were during Biblical times....or like they are in other countries. I have never once had someone do anything more than make fun of me for being a Christian...which didn't bother me at all.

When Christ tells us to turn the other cheek, I do not think he is saying that we should just stand by and let someone kill us or our loved ones.

In my opinion, if you REALLY believe that carrying a gun to church goes against God's will, then you should stop carrying EVERYWHERE and not just at church. If you are a Christian then you are a Christian 24 hours a day....seven days a week. Not just on Sundays.

[dolanp]

In my opinion, if you REALLY believe that carrying a gun to church goes against God's will, then you should stop carrying EVERYWHERE and not just at church. If you are a Christian then you are a Christian 24 hours a day....seven days a week. Not just on Sundays.

I agree with that. If it's a conviction you truly believe in then it wouldn't be confined only to the church.

I don't think you should stop carrying unless you simply feel that the people there would not like you to do so and you are wanting to respect their wishes.

[Scott Murray]

Check out Luke 22:36. Jesus, knowing he wasn't going to be able to personally provide for his disciple's security, instructed them to buy a sword, by selling their garment if necessary.

I've considered using this verse to persuade my wife that I should apply my clothing budget to my gun collection. But then in verse 38, he tells them that two is enough. :)

[gigag04]

Scott - nice post on Luke 22:36 I had never really noticed that before. I will have to think on it, and looking into further.

The reason I distinguish between Church vs elsewhere, is some random BG that comes up and threatens my life is doing it just because. People that target churches target Christians (well, trying to, not all people in church are necessarily Christians).

So - I guess in simplicity - iif an attack is just an attack then i have no qualms dealling with it as such. Where my conscience has problems is when some is deliberately targeting me for my faith. In the sermon on the Mt. Jesus blessed are the persecuted, and throughout the whole NT a common theme of perseverance through persecution is taught.

Its for sure not a hard fast line, these are just some things I'm thinking through.

Thanks for your replies so far!

-nick

[dolanp]

It's one thing to die fighting for a Christian cause, it's entirely another to let yourself be killed just because the person doing it doesn't like Christians.

[stevie_d_64]

When Christ tells us to turn the other cheek, I do not think he is saying that we should just stand by and let someone kill us or our loved ones.

In my opinion, if you REALLY believe that carrying a gun to church goes against God's will, then you should stop carrying EVERYWHERE and not just at church. If you are a Christian then you are a Christian 24 hours a day....seven days a week. Not just on Sundays.

Well stated Braden...

Personally I do not spend a big fraction of my life "in" church...Therefore I carry not because of where I am going, but because I am out in public where "anything" can happen...Thats why we carry...

Not because we expect something to happen, to warrant our ability to decisively deal with a life-threatening situation...

So unless someone wants to start a discussion about the moral reasons we should defend ourselves, this is where I deposit my thoughts on this subject...

Good thread and discussion folks!!!

Later,
Steve

[rickb308]

The reason I distinguish between Church vs elsewhere, is some random BG that comes up and threatens my life is doing it just because. People that target churches target Christians (well, trying to, not all people in church are necessarily Christians).

"One hundred fifty teenagers were singing hymns at the Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth last night when a gunman burst in the door and opened fire on them. Police have now identified the man as 47-year-old Larry Ashbrook, who authorities described as chronically unemployed and very troubled. The assailant emptied three ammunition clips from a nine-millimeter semiautomatic handgun. He reportedly shouted anti-religious, anti-Baptist curses as he fired. Seven people died, four teenagers and three adults. Seven more were wounded. Ashbrook then went into a back pew at the church and took his own life."

Here's the clincher. He wasn't persecuting them because they were Christians, he was assaulting them because he was nuts.

Excuse me, for the politically correct, "very troubled".

[stevie_d_64]

[quote="rickb308]

"One hundred fifty teenagers were singing hymns at the Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth last night when a gunman burst in the door and opened fire on them. Police have now identified the man as 47-year-old Larry Ashbrook, who authorities described as chronically unemployed and very troubled. The assailant emptied three ammunition clips from a nine-millimeter semiautomatic handgun. He reportedly shouted anti-religious, anti-Baptist curses as he fired. Seven people died, four teenagers and three adults. Seven more were wounded. Ashbrook then went into a back pew at the church and took his own life."

Here's the clincher. He wasn't persecuting them because they were Christians, he was assaulting them because he was nuts.

Excuse me, for the politically correct, "very troubled".[/quote]

I remember this incident (I'm sure others do as well...)

I would have carried in my church before this happened, and even after it occured...My mind was made up before this happened...And nothing will change my mind about it...

But remember, the most important thing that the report/story was trying to get accross to the public...

"The assailant emptied three ammunition clips from a nine-millimeter semiautomatic handgun."

The rest of the story was intended to be gravy...

Later,
Steve

[Scott Murray]

I believe the passages about turning the other cheek describe an attitude of being willing to suffer a certain amount of (non lethal) abuse, rather than taking offense and seeking revenge. I don't think they command that we allow ourselves or others to be maimed or slaughtered by criminals.

I also believe that the verses about suffering persecution, and the examples where it's happened in history up to the present time, usually pertain to official oppression by government or society as a whole. We really can't fight that with our handguns (or swords "He you lives by the sword dies by the sword"). But that doesn't mean we can't avoid it where possible. Peter, after he was released from jail by the angel, left and hid himself. He didn't just turn himself back in. Paul allowed himself to be lowered from the walls of Damascus in a basket.

If you look at all the verses in the old testament about the shedding of innocent blood, both in the books of Moses and in the later prophets, you get a sense of what an abomination it is to God. I don't think he would want us to allow it, when we have in our hands the means to offer protection. This includes protecting both ourselves and others.

Scott

[TraCoun]

In the Garden, Jesus said if His kingdom were of this world (it wasn't at the time but will be) His disciples would fight.

The reference to Jesus telling people to get swords is accurate.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say we are to simply go along with the persecution. Paul, knowing he was being hunted, escaped at least once by being lowered from a window in a basket.

If we finally are gotten into circumstances where we cannot resist we accept. But fighting back under attack is NOT forbidden, at least not that I've found.