Daycare and Pre-Schools

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

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bigbear_98
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Re: Daycare and Pre-Schools

Postby bigbear_98 » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:55 am

I found this information on another forum, and traced it out and believe it to be true. Daycare = no go. Give me your take on it.



"I believe a Day Care in Texas will be treated as a school if it meets the following:

(7) "Day-care center" means a child-care facility that provides care for more than 12 children under 14 years of age for less than 24 hours a day. Human Resources Code Sec. 42.002

I got to that definition by working through the code as it is referenced under the CCW laws because this would be the penalty for carry in an weapon free school zone:

PC 46.11. PENALTY IF OFFENSE COMMlTTED WITHIN WEAPON-FREE SCHOOLZONE.

(c) In this section, "institution of higher education," "premises," and "school" have the meanings assigned by Section 481.134, Health and Safety Code.

Which leads us here:

Health & Safety Code Sec. 481.134
(5) "School" means a private or public elementary or secondary school or a day-care center, as defined by Section 42.002, Human Resources Code."

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Vol Texan
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Re: Daycare and Pre-Schools

Postby Vol Texan » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:36 am

bigbear_98 wrote:I found this information on another forum, and traced it out and believe it to be true. Daycare = no go. Give me your take on it.



"I believe a Day Care in Texas will be treated as a school if it meets the following:

(7) "Day-care center" means a child-care facility that provides care for more than 12 children under 14 years of age for less than 24 hours a day. Human Resources Code Sec. 42.002

I got to that definition by working through the code as it is referenced under the CCW laws because this would be the penalty for carry in an weapon free school zone:

PC 46.11. PENALTY IF OFFENSE COMMlTTED WITHIN WEAPON-FREE SCHOOLZONE.

(c) In this section, "institution of higher education," "premises," and "school" have the meanings assigned by Section 481.134, Health and Safety Code.

Which leads us here:

Health & Safety Code Sec. 481.134
(5) "School" means a private or public elementary or secondary school or a day-care center, as defined by Section 42.002, Human Resources Code."


Now I'm no lawyer, so I'm just regurgitating some things I've read on here, but I'd think you're misleading yourself with that explanation.

You're taking a piece of the Texas Penal Code and mixing it with the Texas Health and Safety Code. The former of those two describes the laws that we must follow (and the penalties for not doing so), and the latter describes the things that the institutions must do in order to maintain their licensing and status (YES! I know that is a dramatic oversimplification, but as I said, I'm no lawyer.)

In the Texas Penal Code, Sec. 46.11, it says:


Sec. 46.11. PENALTY IF OFFENSE COMMITTED WITHIN WEAPON-FREE SCHOOL ZONE. (a) Except as provided by Subsection (b), the punishment prescribed for an offense under this chapter is increased to the punishment prescribed for the next highest category of offense if it is shown beyond a reasonable doubt on the trial of the offense that the actor committed the offense in a place that the actor knew was:

(1) within 300 feet of the premises of a school; or
(2) on premises where:
(A) an official school function is taking place; or
(B) an event sponsored or sanctioned by the University Interscholastic League is taking place.
(b) This section does not apply to an offense under Section 46.03(a)(1).
(c) In this section:
(1) "Premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 481.134, Health and Safety Code.
(2) "School" means a private or public elementary or secondary school.



Note that right above it, it specifically mentions the Health and Safety Code to define the word 'Premises'. However, it does not reference that code to define the word 'School'.

Going further into this, it says in section (b) above that this section does not apply to an offense under section 4.03 (a) (1).

In that section, it says,
Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):

(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless:
(A) pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution; or

(B) the person possesses or goes with a concealed handgun that the person is licensed to carry under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and no other weapon to which this section applies, on the premises of an institution of higher education or private or independent institution of higher education, on any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by the institution is being conducted, or in a passenger transportation vehicle of the institution;


Summing up:
46.03 covers walking into a school
46.11 covers OTHER offenses that happen near a school in a Gun Free School Zone (GFSZ).

So...using 46.11 to express that walking into a school is missing the mark (because that covers other offenses)
And...using the Health and Safety Code to express what a school is with reference to the part of the code that does cover walking into a school is also missing the mark.

I'll defer to the much brighter legal minds here to set this straight for us, but I think that the comparison you've made is a bit off the mark.
Last edited by Vol Texan on Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
When those fail, aim for center mass.

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bigbear_98
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Re: Daycare and Pre-Schools

Postby bigbear_98 » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:51 am

Vol Texan wrote:
You're taking a piece of the Texas Penal Code and mixing it with the Texas Health and Safety Code. The former of those two describes the laws that we must follow (and the penalties for not doing so), and the latter describes the things that the institutions must do in order to maintain their licensing and status (YES! I know that is a dramatic oversimplification, but as I said, I'm no lawyer.)


I'll defer to the much brighter legal minds here to set this straight for us, but I think that the comparison you've made is a bit off the mark.


I've always read it the way you are, but when I found that forum post it made me wonder. Hence why I posted, I Want closer on this topic for myself.

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Vol Texan
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Re: Daycare and Pre-Schools

Postby Vol Texan » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:01 am

bigbear_98 wrote:
Vol Texan wrote:
You're taking a piece of the Texas Penal Code and mixing it with the Texas Health and Safety Code. The former of those two describes the laws that we must follow (and the penalties for not doing so), and the latter describes the things that the institutions must do in order to maintain their licensing and status (YES! I know that is a dramatic oversimplification, but as I said, I'm no lawyer.)


I'll defer to the much brighter legal minds here to set this straight for us, but I think that the comparison you've made is a bit off the mark.


I've always read it the way you are, but when I found that forum post it made me wonder. Hence why I posted, I Want closer on this topic for myself.


Absolutely the right idea to get more info. I don't know the other forum's name, but I do know this one is run by Charles Cotton, one of the more learned legal minds with respect to 2A in Texas. I give a lot of credibility to his postings on here. (Note that my posting isn't his words, and some of the sharper folks might add a lot more clarity to something I'm painting with a sloppy, broad brush.)

That being said, I see that you have fewer then 9 postings on here. Some of yours go back to 2008 (so you're no newbie by any means), but I wanted to say thanks for joining in on the conversations more. So, rather than saying 'welcome to the forum', I can (sort of) say, 'welcome back'! I also lurked here for some time before I became more active, and I've learned a ton in both modes.
Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
When those fail, aim for center mass.

Armored Cav. | NRA Certified Pistol Instructor | www.Texas3006.com Moderator


locke_n_load
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Re: Daycare and Pre-Schools

Postby locke_n_load » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:41 pm

Don't forget, texas penal code makes it an offense to carry on the premises of a "school or educational institution". Educational institution is not defined. Is a daycare an educational institution? My kid learns a lot at her daycare.
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bigbear_98
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Re: Daycare and Pre-Schools

Postby bigbear_98 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:51 am

Vol Texan wrote:
, I see that you have fewer then 9 postings on here. Some of yours go back to 2008 (so you're no newbie by any means), but I wanted to say thanks for joining in on the conversations more. So, rather than saying 'welcome to the forum', I can (sort of) say, 'welcome back'! I also lurked here for some time before I became more active, and I've learned a ton in both modes.


Thanks. Hopefully we will get a good interpretation here soon.

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KLB
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Re: Daycare and Pre-Schools

Postby KLB » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:39 am

Rrash wrote:Most pre-schools have kindergarden and require the same immunizations, paperwork, and documentation you would need to attend an accredited elementary school. A prosecutor could make a convincing argument and a jury would find it reasonable to consider a pre-school facility an educational institution - accredited or not. Until they clarify or change the law to allow CHL's to carry in schools, I wouldn't risk it.


A prudent course of action that I, too, follow. In addition to the other sites offered as searches for places that might be considered a school, you might want to check the National Association for the Education of Young Children: http://www.naeyc.org/ I often pick my grandson up from such a place, and I do not carry because I have long regarded it as a school.

While some might not consider such places schools, the places listed think they are. And a prosecutor might convince a jury they are.

On a side note, where is written that a school must be listed on some organization's website?


esau05
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Re: Daycare and Pre-Schools

Postby esau05 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:38 am

Hi!
We are going to move to Texas this January. I and my wife both are working My son age is 3 1/2 years. I want him to get admitted in preschool. can you please suggest me a good preschool in Texas?
Thanks

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Vol Texan
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Re: Daycare and Pre-Schools

Postby Vol Texan » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:38 am

esau05 wrote:Hi!
We are going to move to Texas this January. I and my wife both are working My son age is 3 1/2 years. I want him to get admitted in preschool. can you please suggest me a good preschool in Texas?
Thanks

Welcome to God’s country.

Texas is kinda big. If you can narrow it down a bit, you might get some good insight.
Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
When those fail, aim for center mass.

Armored Cav. | NRA Certified Pistol Instructor | www.Texas3006.com Moderator


Soccerdad1995
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Re: Daycare and Pre-Schools

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:26 pm

esau05 wrote:Hi!
We are going to move to Texas this January. I and my wife both are working My son age is 3 1/2 years. I want him to get admitted in preschool. can you please suggest me a good preschool in Texas?
Thanks


Tot Town Child Development Center gets good reviews. It is in Beaumont, so depending on where you live the commute might take a full day of traveling.
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chasfm11
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Re: Daycare and Pre-Schools

Postby chasfm11 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:52 am

bigbear_98 wrote:
Vol Texan wrote:
You're taking a piece of the Texas Penal Code and mixing it with the Texas Health and Safety Code. The former of those two describes the laws that we must follow (and the penalties for not doing so), and the latter describes the things that the institutions must do in order to maintain their licensing and status (YES! I know that is a dramatic oversimplification, but as I said, I'm no lawyer.)


I'll defer to the much brighter legal minds here to set this straight for us, but I think that the comparison you've made is a bit off the mark.


I've always read it the way you are, but when I found that forum post it made me wonder. Hence why I posted, I Want closer on this topic for myself.


The problem is much greater than that. Our daughter works in payroll for a large charter school company. Up until a few weeks ago, the building where she works also housed student classrooms. No where on the outside of the building does it say "school" or anything like that and the outward appearance is more of an office building than any school architecture. The company built another building very close by and now that building houses the kids' classrooms. So our daughter's building, which has no gun signs, is just an office building for a private company. They could move a class room back into that building next week and there would be no way for an outsider to know bout it.

There are many churches that have similar setups for the "schools" that they run. Sometimes, they are housed in the same building as the Sanctuary, sometimes the student classrooms are in a physically separate building. There is no way for anyone to know except for the classroom staff exactly what is going on. A most interesting question comes up about the mixed use church facilities. If it is considered a school during the regular week and it is housed inside of Sanctuary building, does that make the whole building off-limits all of the time? If you read the CPS published email on the subject, their answer is yes. Our old church housed the pre-school in a separate, locked wing but the students would occasionally the Sanctuary or a large hall for their activities. Under the line of thinking that licensing groups control the building, something that could also be used in court, the matter is highly questionable.

For me, trespass on Corp of Engineer's property with a concealed handgun is the same thing. It isn't easy to tell where that property starts and ends. I ought to have a chance to obey the law and not have to research ownership records and use of buildings to figure that out. Otherwise, concealed is concealed.
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