How to report improper §30.06 signs

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AJSully421
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby AJSully421 » Sat May 21, 2016 7:01 pm

On another note, things are moving fast over there. I submitted an online complaint on Wednesday morning and received a copy of the notice sent from the OAG to the city today, on Saturday. Mail from Austin to me takes two days, so the letters to me and the city had to have been mailed on Thursday by 5pm. Basically a 24 hour turn around from receiving the complaint to getting letters mailed out.
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30.06 signs only make criminals and terrorists safer.


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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby FJRider » Tue May 24, 2016 7:31 pm

AJSully421 wrote:
rotor wrote:Went to the Wichita Falls Gun and Knife show today and it was posted 30.06 and 30.07 inside the building but just before you enter the gun show. This is at the Multi Purpose Event Center, City owned unless I hear otherwise. Talked to the sheriff deputies at the door and asked how could it be posted since it was city owned property. "It's a private event" they said. Realized it was no use discussing with them as they were not knowledgeable about the law. It's a Saturday and the event is 2 days. Not a lot that can be done here. Can not reach the person who puts on the shows, joetom@joetomwhite.com, but have an email to the city manager who is very good. See what happens but sure ruined my day. Hope the vendors note that they are going to lose business and I usually am there with $1,000 if I see anything worth getting. Went to the site Charles mentions at the beginning of this post and downloaded the forms to start a complaint. My first issue is the legality of the signs on City owned property. There is a moral issue though of someone making money off of a gun show and banning licensed people from carrying.


The Fort Worth gun show used to have the same thing. It is at a city-owned venue. They now post a sign that says your entry fee is a revocable agreement based on you not having any loaded weapons. I conceal.


This seems like an open attempt to circumvent a law about public buildings. I believe that one of the folks posting here is a lawyer. I wonder if he would mind writing a letter and maybe sending intent for a class action against the show and the city of Fort Worth to get their attention.

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AJSully421
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby AJSully421 » Tue May 24, 2016 11:25 pm

FJRider wrote:
AJSully421 wrote:
rotor wrote:Went to the Wichita Falls Gun and Knife show today and it was posted 30.06 and 30.07 inside the building but just before you enter the gun show. This is at the Multi Purpose Event Center, City owned unless I hear otherwise. Talked to the sheriff deputies at the door and asked how could it be posted since it was city owned property. "It's a private event" they said. Realized it was no use discussing with them as they were not knowledgeable about the law. It's a Saturday and the event is 2 days. Not a lot that can be done here. Can not reach the person who puts on the shows, joetom@joetomwhite.com, but have an email to the city manager who is very good. See what happens but sure ruined my day. Hope the vendors note that they are going to lose business and I usually am there with $1,000 if I see anything worth getting. Went to the site Charles mentions at the beginning of this post and downloaded the forms to start a complaint. My first issue is the legality of the signs on City owned property. There is a moral issue though of someone making money off of a gun show and banning licensed people from carrying.


The Fort Worth gun show used to have the same thing. It is at a city-owned venue. They now post a sign that says your entry fee is a revocable agreement based on you not having any loaded weapons. I conceal.


This seems like an open attempt to circumvent a law about public buildings. I believe that one of the folks posting here is a lawyer. I wonder if he would mind writing a letter and maybe sending intent for a class action against the show and the city of Fort Worth to get their attention.


Agreed. It may also be a provision of the liability insurance coverage for the show promoter to not have any loaded guns in the venue. When posting legal 30.06/07 signs was not an option, I am use that they were told to post something with some teeth, and chances are the "revocable entry agreement" language was what their lawyer came up with.

As a side note, if 30.06 cannot be used in a city-owned venue, and 30.05 cannot be used if the reason that you are kicking someone out is the fact that they have a LTC and a concealed handgun... how will anyone, including the police, enforce the "revocation of your entry" if you are found to have a concealed handgun at the FW Gun Show? They cannot force you to leave, and the police cannot touch you, you cannot be CT'd from future shows under 30.05... Sounds like fun!
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan, 1964

30.06 signs only make criminals and terrorists safer.

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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby JALLEN » Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:43 am

I am about to prepare a couple of affidavits to submit along with the complaint to the AG on some government buildings which are posted.

The affidavit calls for some evidence of proof of ownership by the government, on information and belief. What might be submitted to accomplish this?

I assume that somewhere back in the dark dingy files of the county clerk there is a deed to the property but is this really necessary? It is obvious that the county courthouses etc are owned by the county, and that properties with government offices are either owned by or leased to that government.

What suffices here?
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby Pawpaw » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:42 am

Did you consider doing a search for the address on the county Appraisal District website? I would think a printout of that page would suffice. After all, it's based on their records.
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby JALLEN » Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:19 am

Pawpaw wrote:Did you consider doing a search for the address on the county Appraisal District website? I would think a printout of that page would suffice. After all, it's based on their records.


Why would the county show its property on the appraisal list? It isn't appraised and sure as blazes they aren't going to pay taxes on it.

In San Diego, where I have very extensive experience with these things, the parcels belonging to the government are not on the tax rolls. I'm hoping that governments in Texas are smarter than governments in CA, being run by unionized socialists and all.

That may be a foolish assumption, I guess.
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby ScottDLS » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:07 pm

JALLEN wrote:
Pawpaw wrote:Did you consider doing a search for the address on the county Appraisal District website? I would think a printout of that page would suffice. After all, it's based on their records.


Why would the county show its property on the appraisal list? It isn't appraised and sure as blazes they aren't going to pay taxes on it.

In San Diego, where I have very extensive experience with these things, the parcels belonging to the government are not on the tax rolls. I'm hoping that governments in Texas are smarter than governments in CA, being run by unionized socialists and all.

That may be a foolish assumption, I guess.



All the government owned property is on the county appraisal district rolls and sometimes even has a value assigned.
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby mojo84 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:01 pm

JALLEN wrote:
Pawpaw wrote:Did you consider doing a search for the address on the county Appraisal District website? I would think a printout of that page would suffice. After all, it's based on their records.


Why would the county show its property on the appraisal list? It isn't appraised and sure as blazes they aren't going to pay taxes on it.

In San Diego, where I have very extensive experience with these things, the parcels belonging to the government are not on the tax rolls. I'm hoping that governments in Texas are smarter than governments in CA, being run by unionized socialists and all.

That may be a foolish assumption, I guess.


At least in Kendall County, even county owned property is listed.

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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby JALLEN » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:43 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
JALLEN wrote:
Pawpaw wrote:Did you consider doing a search for the address on the county Appraisal District website? I would think a printout of that page would suffice. After all, it's based on their records.


Why would the county show its property on the appraisal list? It isn't appraised and sure as blazes they aren't going to pay taxes on it.

In San Diego, where I have very extensive experience with these things, the parcels belonging to the government are not on the tax rolls. I'm hoping that governments in Texas are smarter than governments in CA, being run by unionized socialists and all.

That may be a foolish assumption, I guess.



OK, I tried the search by name. It turns out the county owns a ton of properties.

Back to your regularly scheduled program. Thanks!
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby ScottDLS » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:25 pm

Yeah, it's best to search by the address. For big properties like stadiums you'll see a lot of equipment/fixtures/machinery that is owned by and gets taxed to businesses, but the building and property will be owned by the government (e.g. ATT/Cowboys Stadium)
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby JALLEN » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:48 pm

ScottDLS wrote:Yeah, it's best to search by the address. For big properties like stadiums you'll see a lot of equipment/fixtures/machinery that is owned by and gets taxed to businesses, but the building and property will be owned by the government (e.g. ATT/Cowboys Stadium)


In this case, it isn't.

The annex we are complaining about has two parcels, and two addresses, neither of which are used for the building. I can't remember what used to be on the property when I was a kid, but since then the county bought it and built the annex. It is still on the roll as two parcels, a portion of which probably is the original courthouse. As far as I could tell, there is no property on the tax rolls with the address now used, which is between the two addresses they have on the tax roll. Sneaky!
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby KLB » Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:26 pm

Pawpaw wrote:Did you consider doing a search for the address on the county Appraisal District website? I would think a printout of that page would suffice. After all, it's based on their records.

A couple of observations:

1. When the appraisal district says a building is city owned, that is probably right. With land, that is not necessarily the case. The Bexar Appraisal District often lists the City of San Antonio as owner of property over which it has only a drainage or other easement. Even though the the appraisal district's statement of ownership is not technically correct, it's close enough for the appraisal district's purposes. If the City has a drainage easement, for example, the residual fee interest is usually (but not always) worth so little that there's no point in taxing it.

2. Real property records are online in urban counties at least. Take the legal description from the appraisal district (assuming it's a lot and block description) and then search the county deed records for the latest deed to that property. In all cases, that will be much better evidence that a given property is city owned.

If the legal description is metes and bounds, finding the property on the county clerk's website is more involved.

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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby KLB » Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:34 pm

JALLEN wrote:As far as I could tell, there is no property on the tax rolls with the address now used, which is between the two addresses they have on the tax roll. Sneaky!

The appraisal rolls are convenient for all of us to use, but that's not their function. The function is to identify taxable property. If a minor error in the records is not material to the government collecting more taxes, getting the records technically accurate may not be worth the time and expense. Use of appraisal district records is very much caveat emptor.

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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby JALLEN » Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:47 pm

Moreover, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the officials are any better at judging which inaccuracies would lead to more tax collection if corrected than they are at maintaining accurate records in the first place.

Incompetence is always a plausible explanation for official miscues.
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby JALLEN » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:43 pm

I faxed to the AG this evening a package of letters, affidavits, photos and tax rolls constituting a complaint concerning the signs on both court house annexes in New Braunfels. I followed the forms found at Texas Firearm Coalition.

We'll see what happens from here.
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