How to report improper §30.06 signs

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ELB
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby ELB » Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:19 am

And the attorney general’s office recorded only seven complaints last month.

“Hopefully, that’s a good sign,” said Charlotte Johnson, a board member for Texas Gun Sense, a group that opposes loosening gun regulations. “It’s not that so many people are doing it just to make a stand.”


See, SB273 wasn't really needed. Why is the Attorney General wasting government resources doing the bidding of a miniscule number of gun cranks?

I know there is a line of thought to not have separate people duplicate complaints and not inundate the AG, but I think that this is a mistake, at least politically. Paxton may have enough fire in he belly to ignore such criticism (and it will come), then again he has his own legal troubles. He may come to the conclusion that he needs all the "good press" he can get, and using the AG's resources against "real" problems, ones where lots of people are complaining, is certainly plausible strategy.
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby TXBO » Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:53 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:SB273 that prohibits governmental entities and agencies from posting unenforceable 30.06 signs, or otherwise giving notice under §30.06, goes into effect Sept. 1, 2015. There is a specific procedure that must be followed in order to file an official complaint that is necessary to authorize the Texas Attorney General to file suit. This procedure requires three day written notice to the governmental agency or subdivision, but the code provision is silent as to whether this notice must be given prior to filing a complaint with the AG's office. I am going to draft a suggested form letter for citizens to use when providing this required three day notice, as well as a suggested affidavit to use when filing a complaint with the AG's Office. The Code does not require an affidavit, but that would be a very good idea. I will also provide a step by step outline of what do to and how to do it.

The forms will be on the TexasFirearmsCoalition.com website. People wanting to complain about signs will be able to fill in the required data on an input form and they will receive an email with the completed letter, affidavit and data form. They will also need to upload a photograph of the sign. This procedure will not only make filing a complaint very easy, it will create a database of complaints and agencies/subdivisions that are violating the law. Hopefully, we will never need this information, but it will be valuable if we have to address this issue again. I am especially concerned about signs that are posted for short periods of time, making the three day notice and failure to cure a problem. Gun shows and other short-term events come to mind. The database of complaints will be invaluable if this becomes a problem.

I am making this an announcement so it will always be easy to find. I will post a notice and a link to the forms when I have them completed.

Don't bother photographing unenforceable signs now, most of them will come down before Sept. 1st.

Chas.


AG Paxton has set up a website for complaints. It looks pretty simple to use. It probably wasn't available when you created your process. Here is a link so you can give us guidance on using this option.

https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/apps/3006/


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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby One Shot » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:34 pm

clarionite wrote:I'll go by San Antonio Airport September 2nd.

Still posted. Do they selectively follow only the laws they like?
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby Rex B » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:56 am

I was at the Fort Worth Gun Show Sunday.
Same old 30.06 and "No Loaded Firearms" sign.
For the first time, I ignored it. I suspect others did as well.

ETA: I inquired about this on the FWGS Facebook page. Here is the reply:

"The posting applies as a condition of entry into the privately controlled show area."

I don't recall signing anything to waive my rights when I entered.

They will also have the Lewisville show this weekend posted. I could not find out anything about the site ownership.
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:25 pm

Rex B wrote:I was at the Fort Worth Gun Show Sunday.
Same old 30.06 and "No Loaded Firearms" sign.
For the first time, I ignored it. I suspect others did as well.

ETA: I inquired about this on the FWGS Facebook page. Here is the reply:

"The posting applies as a condition of entry into the privately controlled show area."

I don't recall signing anything to waive my rights when I entered.

They will also have the Lewisville show this weekend posted. I could not find out anything about the site ownership.

I'm going to create a form to track these temporary 30.06 signs. I want to use this data to support repealing the 3 day notice requirement after the first time, as well as add a provision that will remove the 15 day cure period after the first posting notice.

Thanks,
Chas.
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby Rex B » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:18 pm

Charles
Please do that. I know you mentioned that before, but I could not find any mechanism to deal with such temporary postings.

Rex
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby casp625 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:48 pm

Rex B wrote:Charles
Please do that. I know you mentioned that before, but I could not find any mechanism to deal with such temporary postings.

Rex

Pick them up and put them in your trunk? :roll:

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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby AJSully421 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:12 am

casp625 wrote:
Rex B wrote:Charles
Please do that. I know you mentioned that before, but I could not find any mechanism to deal with such temporary postings.

Rex

Pick them up and put them in your trunk? :roll:


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30.06 signs only make criminals and terrorists safer.


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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby android » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:02 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:I'm going to create a form to track these temporary 30.06 signs. I want to use this data to support repealing the 3 day notice requirement after the first time, as well as add a provision that will remove the 15 day cure period after the first posting notice.



Fayette Country Fair did the same thing. Temporary signs and the event only lasted 3 days.

I have photos.

According to the fair website,
The City of La Grange owns the grounds and the Fayette County Fair Association has the grounds leased from them and maintains the buildings.


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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby dhoobler » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:37 pm

Rex B wrote:Charles
Please do that. I know you mentioned that before, but I could not find any mechanism to deal with such temporary postings.

Rex

I reported temporary signs posted at a guns show at the Pasadena Convention Center (city owned). The AG accepted my complaint. I am waiting for the outcome.
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby oljames3 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:52 pm

Monday, 10/26/15, I notified the Elgin Independent School District about their signs in the Administration Building. Signs were still up Thursday, 10/29/15. Today, Friday, 10/30/15, I used the form on the AG site to report to the AG and uploaded to TFC.
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby Glockster » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:56 pm

I'm wondering if for these short term events, whether they post the signs a day or more before the actual event start date (and I'm guessing that they don't wait until the morning of the event). And if they do, could a complaint be filed to the city on that date, perhaps giving the three days then to find that they hadn't removed it. I know that they could still simply remove it at the end of the three days but perhaps this would strengthen a complaint if it was still up when it was filed?
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby TexasCajun » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:07 pm

Glockster wrote:I'm wondering if for these short term events, whether they post the signs a day or more before the actual event start date (and I'm guessing that they don't wait until the morning of the event). And if they do, could a complaint be filed to the city on that date, perhaps giving the three days then to find that they hadn't removed it. I know that they could still simply remove it at the end of the three days but perhaps this would strengthen a complaint if it was still up when it was filed?

I think that the repeated violation reports will mean more. For temporary events, the signs go up & come down before the process to report them really gets rolling. It's a loophole that we knew was going to be there, but it's not something that we can still act upon.
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby TXlaw1 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:14 pm

oljames3 wrote:Monday, 10/26/15, I notified the Elgin Independent School District about their signs in the Administration Building. Signs were still up Thursday, 10/29/15. Today, Friday, 10/30/15, I used the form on the AG site to report to the AG and uploaded to TFC.


Hope this works for you and thanks for doing this reporting.

Does anyone know if the Regional Education Service Centers (like Region 16 in Amarillo) can legally post a 30.06 sign? They have a permanent one in the front entrance?
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Re: How to report improper §30.06 signs

Postby CleverNickname » Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:19 am

Everyone agrees that if the government leases property to someone that the lessee is prohibited from posting 30.06. But what about if someone leases property to the government? The law says:

Sec. 411.209. WRONGFUL EXCLUSION OF CONCEALED HANDGUN
LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A state agency or a political subdivision of
the state may not provide notice by a communication described by
Section 30.06, Penal Code, or by any sign expressly referring to
that law or to a concealed handgun license, that a license holder
carrying a handgun under the authority of this subchapter is
prohibited from entering or remaining on a premises or other place
owned or leased by the governmental entity unless license holders
are prohibited from carrying a handgun on the premises or other
place by Section 46.03 or 46.035, Penal Code.


So the first question is, what does "leased" mean? As far as I can tell, the dictionary definition of the verb "lease" can be used both for the letting of property by the lessor and the hiring of property by the lessee. But the dictionary definition isn't necessarily the legal definition. I wasn't able to find the legal definition of "lease" in the Texas state code, but I did see in Government Code 2167 where the verb "lease" is used in talking about the state hiring property as the lessee. So it appears that the state may not post a 30.06 sign on property they hire as the lessee.

The second question is, what is "provide notice?" Ok, providing notice is posting the sign, but did the state really provide notice if they didn't post the sign, but instead the property owner posted the sign? What about if the sign is not posted on property leased by the government as the lessee, but the sign is posted only on property the landlord has not leased, but is property which anyone must pass through in order to enter the property leased by the government as lessee? For example, if a government agency leases one floor on a multi-story office building, they don't seem to be able to post a 30.06 outside their office door on that floor, but I'm not sure if the building management can't post a 30.06 on the first floor entrance. I'm pretty sure I've read of a legal doctrine (not sure of the name) where if a government entity may not perform some action then they can't require someone else to perform that action (e.g. as part of a legal agreement like a lease). But what about a lease that was signed before SB 273 came into effect? Is that now nullified?

If there's nothing preventing 30.06 posting on property leased by a government as a lessee, I can really see the Dallas Zoo (or someone similar) doing something retarded like selling a 1' strip of property surrounding the zoo to a private entity, which then posts a 30.06 on the property and leases the 1' strip back to the zoo on a 99-year lease.


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