LEOSA and TCOLE

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

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Keith B
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Re: LEOSA and TCOLE

Postby Keith B » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:05 am

Bryanmc wrote:Interesting that this has been revived. I found it in a search with keywords LEOSA and TCOLE. I had a firearms instructor (state le and chl) tell me that the only valid leosa qualification card in Texas was the one issued by TCOLE. LEOSA says that you have to qualify to state standards by someone qualified to conduct the qual. I'm wondering if the state can actually requires that you have a card issued by TCOLE or a card issued by a state le instructor stating that you met standards is actually sufficient?


No, you do not need the Texas LEOSA card. Your federal card is fine. The requirements for keeping it valid per 926C for a qualified retired and separated officer are:

Be separated in good standing from service with the DoD component as a law enforcement officer.
.......
To carry concealed, during the most recent 12-month period, (1) met the State's standards for training and qualification to carry a firearm for active law enforcement officers in that state for the same type of weapon as the concealed, (2) qualify using the States LEOSA firearms qualification course, or (3) if the State has not established law enforcement officer firearms qualification standard the instructor will certify the officer has completed the DoD Component handgun qualification course conducted by a state certified civilian firearms instructor using the member's privately owned firearm and personally procured ammunition.


All that is required is to qualify as you have been doing per the state requirements.
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Re: LEOSA and TCOLE

Postby Smokey613 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:13 am

You do not have to have the TCOLE card. Any documentation by a LTC Instructor or TCOLE Firearms Instructor will suffice for Texas. It covers you for LEOSA carry also. I provide such documentation on our departmental letterhead to retired LEOs that I qualify for carry purposes. They are still required to have official retirement ID along with the firearms qualification documentation.
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Excaliber
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Re: LEOSA and TCOLE

Postby Excaliber » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:19 am

Pauly wrote:Texas Govt. Code refers to “License to Carry a Handgun”. You do not need a TX CHL to carry under LEOSA. Therefore, if I don’t have a TX CHL I am not carrying a handgun under authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Govt Code.


As I understand it, even if you have an LTC and also qualify annually under LEOSA, your LEOSA-related privileges kick in where the LTC's end. This includes the exemption from prohibited places carry restrictions under PC46.15a(5) and the restrictions specifically applied to those who carry only under the LTC.

If this were not the case, commissioned LEO's would lose many of their carry privileges if they also maintain an LTC.
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Re: LEOSA and TCOLE

Postby srothstein » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:13 am

Bryanmc wrote:Interesting that this has been revived. I found it in a search with keywords LEOSA and TCOLE. I had a firearms instructor (state le and chl) tell me that the only valid leosa qualification card in Texas was the one issued by TCOLE. LEOSA says that you have to qualify to state standards by someone qualified to conduct the qual. I'm wondering if the state can actually requires that you have a card issued by TCOLE or a card issued by a state le instructor stating that you met standards is actually sufficient?


The firearms instructor told you wrong in many ways. When you actually read the law (18 USC 926B and 926C), the TCOLE issued card is invalid. Federal law requires you to have an ID card issued by the agency you work (or worked) for. Unless you were a TCOLE officer, the TCOLE card does not meet federal law.

But, there is a different aspect to consider. Texas law recognizes any retired ID card issued by a state, federal, or local law enforcement agency. It does not specify that it be the one you worked for. It does require you to have a Texas qualification form under the Occupations Code. That law contradicts the TCOLE form in one respect. The OC requires that the qualification be issued by a Texas law enforcement agency while TCOLE specifically allows it to be any licensed LTC instructor. This is an interesting contradiction when you think about it.

And most of the officers I know will recognize almost any ID card from a law enforcement agency without looking at the qualification form. Unless it was a bad shooting to begin with, in which case the DA might look at how you had the weapon. The real street world versus the law also can be an interesting contradiction.
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Re: LEOSA and TCOLE

Postby Excaliber » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:15 am

srothstein wrote:
Bryanmc wrote:Interesting that this has been revived. I found it in a search with keywords LEOSA and TCOLE. I had a firearms instructor (state le and chl) tell me that the only valid leosa qualification card in Texas was the one issued by TCOLE. LEOSA says that you have to qualify to state standards by someone qualified to conduct the qual. I'm wondering if the state can actually requires that you have a card issued by TCOLE or a card issued by a state le instructor stating that you met standards is actually sufficient?


The firearms instructor told you wrong in many ways. When you actually read the law (18 USC 926B and 926C), the TCOLE issued card is invalid. Federal law requires you to have an ID card issued by the agency you work (or worked) for. Unless you were a TCOLE officer, the TCOLE card does not meet federal law.

But, there is a different aspect to consider. Texas law recognizes any retired ID card issued by a state, federal, or local law enforcement agency. It does not specify that it be the one you worked for. It does require you to have a Texas qualification form under the Occupations Code. That law contradicts the TCOLE form in one respect. The OC requires that the qualification be issued by a Texas law enforcement agency while TCOLE specifically allows it to be any licensed LTC instructor. This is an interesting contradiction when you think about it.

And most of the officers I know will recognize almost any ID card from a law enforcement agency without looking at the qualification form. Unless it was a bad shooting to begin with, in which case the DA might look at how you had the weapon. The real street world versus the law also can be an interesting contradiction.


There are actually two acceptable ways to meet the credential set requirements under LEOSA.

Under 18 USC 926C (d) 2 A&B, the TCOLE card along with with the photographic retirement ID from the agency the officer worked for constitutes an acceptable document set under the law. The other acceptable document is a retirement ID from the officer's agency that includes certification of having met the qualification standards within the past year. The text of the relevant sections reads:

(d) The identification required by this subsection is—

(1) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual separated from service as a law enforcement officer that indicates that the individual has, not less recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the agency to meet the active duty standards for qualification in firearms training as established by the agency to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm; or

(2)(A) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual separated from service as a law enforcement officer; and

(B) a certification issued by the State in which the individual resides or by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State that indicates that the individual has, not less than 1 year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the State or a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State to have met—

(I) the active duty standards for qualification in firearms training, as established by the State
, to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm; or

(II) if the State has not established such standards, standards set by any law enforcement agency within that State to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm.
Excaliber

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Re: LEOSA and TCOLE

Postby Bryanmc » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:44 pm

Excaliber wrote:
(B) a certification issued by the State in which the individual resides or by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State that indicates that the individual has, not less than 1 year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the State or a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State to have met—

(I) the active duty standards for qualification in firearms training, as established by the State[/color], to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm;[/i]


This is pretty much the way I read it. I'm not aware of any mandate from TCOLE to their instructors that they can't certify someone to standards and record it, nor can I find anything in writing. I have a call in to TCOLE to ask about this but haven't heard back from them yet.


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Re: LEOSA and TCOLE

Postby srothstein » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:48 pm

I can see that, Excalibur. I was thinking of people using the TCOLE card as their ID, not as their proof of qualification. TCOLE does call it an ID card and I was just pointing out that it is not sufficient for an ID card and that you needed the agency ID card.

Bryanmc, I was not saying TCOLE instructors cannot certify, just LTC instructors do not meet the law. As a matter of law, TCOLE officers must be able to certify officers IF their department adopts a policy allowing it. I guess you could get any officer to sign the form, but I think most would decline unless they were certified instructors. My point was that the TCOLE form asks if a LTC instructor was the certifying officer for weapons qualification but that this does not technically meet the state law. Since the federal law requires someone who can certify active officers, and an LTC cannot do that for TCOLE, then a qualification form signed by a LTC instructor would not be valid, in my opinion. Sorry if I was not clear in my statement about this point.
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Re: LEOSA and TCOLE

Postby Excaliber » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:27 am

srothstein wrote:I can see that, Excalibur. I was thinking of people using the TCOLE card as their ID, not as their proof of qualification. TCOLE does call it an ID card and I was just pointing out that it is not sufficient for an ID card and that you needed the agency ID card.

Bryanmc, I was not saying TCOLE instructors cannot certify, just LTC instructors do not meet the law. As a matter of law, TCOLE officers must be able to certify officers IF their department adopts a policy allowing it. I guess you could get any officer to sign the form, but I think most would decline unless they were certified instructors. My point was that the TCOLE form asks if a LTC instructor was the certifying officer for weapons qualification but that this does not technically meet the state law. Since the federal law requires someone who can certify active officers, and an LTC cannot do that for TCOLE, then a qualification form signed by a LTC instructor would not be valid, in my opinion. Sorry if I was not clear in my statement about this point.


Good points.

The TCOLE card should probably be called something like "Retired Officer Firearms Proficiency Card" to be in full compliance with the federal law.
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.


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Re: LEOSA and TCOLE

Postby Bryanmc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:47 pm

srothstein wrote:Bryanmc, I was not saying TCOLE instructors cannot certify, just LTC instructors do not meet the law. As a matter of law, TCOLE officers must be able to certify officers IF their department adopts a policy allowing it.


I understand that Steve. The TCOLE card is just a record of proficiency. While TCOLE accepts an LTC instructor conducting the qual for "their" card, it must be a TCOLE instructor if the record of qualification is not a TCOLE card. So far I have only heard the "TCOLE only" answer from one TCOLE instructor, but he is adamant.

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Re: LEOSA and TCOLE

Postby nightmare69 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:49 am

LEOSA can be really complicated. I was told just qualify with your weapon with your department, carry your creds while off-duty, don't sweat it. My department requires us to qualify with our off-duty firearm anyway and I can see that being beneficial if I was ever jammed up in NYC trying to carry under LEOSA.
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Re: LEOSA and TCOLE

Postby ScottDLS » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:33 am

nightmare69 wrote:LEOSA can be really complicated. I was told just qualify with your weapon with your department, carry your creds while off-duty, don't sweat it. My department requires us to qualify with our off-duty firearm anyway and I can see that being beneficial if I was ever jammed up in NYC trying to carry under LEOSA.


I think the other posters were discussing retired LEO carry, not active. In your case you carry your badge and agency ID. Or if you're a NYPD detective your "shield". :biggrinjester:
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Re: LEOSA and TCOLE

Postby nightmare69 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:40 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:LEOSA can be really complicated. I was told just qualify with your weapon with your department, carry your creds while off-duty, don't sweat it. My department requires us to qualify with our off-duty firearm anyway and I can see that being beneficial if I was ever jammed up in NYC trying to carry under LEOSA.


I think the other posters were discussing retired LEO carry, not active. In your case you carry your badge and agency ID. Or if you're a NYPD detective your "shield". :biggrinjester:


There are plenty of retired police that carry badge and ID. Only difference theirs says “retired”. We have one that qualifies with us every year just so he can continue to carry.
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