Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

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Bitter Clinger
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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#16

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Dan1416 wrote:In a situation where I draw my firearm on an attacker and he complies by stopping the attack once he sees my gun but does not run away. What should I do? Should I command them to lay on the ground and hold them at gun point until the cops arrive? My concern with this approach is with on-lookers that would come across this scene. It may be that someone shoots me thinking that I'm robbing my attacker. Should I carry a pair of handcuffs to constraint the attacker then holster my gun? It almost seems like it is best to tell the attacker to run away but then they would be free to potentially attack someone else.

I know in all likely hood the attacker would run away at the site of my gun but I haven't been able to come up with a good solution for this scenario.
If he does not retreat then that is not a good sign! It means that the situation could escalate at any moment and you need to keep the attacker in your sights.

Keep him covered, call 911 and give your precise address / location, the fact that you were attacked but have the aggressor at bay and are holding him at gunpoint, and provide a clear description of the attacker and yourself (height, weight, clothing, race, tattoos, etc). If the attacker begins to advance, provide verbal warning and if the advance continues, neutralize. If he runs away, try to snap a pic. Reholster slowly and safely once you are certain that the scene is secure and await arrival of LEOs.
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Soccerdad1995
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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#17

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This is one reason why I am not a huge fan of the "draw my gun" tactic, as opposed to "shoot to stop the threat". If I am being approached by a threat, I will try to use verbal commands and gestures such as holding out my left hand and shouting "stop". I will also likely move to put something between us if possible. But if those don't work, then I'm drawing my gun in the act of shooting to stop the threat. There likely isn't going to be a pause between the BG seeing my gun and my shot.

Yes, every situation is unique, and there is a possibility that drawing might make sense, but it opens up other potential problems.

Note that I am defining "threat" here as seeing a visible weapon, obvious disparity of force situation, etc. Not just some random guy walking up to me.

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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#18

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This really happened to my son (not a LTC) about a month ago at college: My son left his apt and was walking through the parking garage. He turns a corner and sees a student being robbed of his backpack by another person, there was no weapon in sight. The robber was a HUGE dude and the victim was much smaller. The victim starting yelling, "help". My son did not approach, but took out his cell phone to call 911 and take a picture. The robber saw my son, saw my son pull out his cell phone, and then ran away (without the backpack). My son called 911.

So, I thought, what would I do if it was me who came upon the situation and was carrying? I would pull my weapon (force, but not deadly force), to try to stop the robber's progress. I would not shoot unless the robber became a threat to my life or the victim's life. I would call 911 when I could safely do so.
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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

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Soccerdad1995 wrote:This is one reason why I am not a huge fan of the "draw my gun" tactic, as opposed to "shoot to stop the threat". If I am being approached by a threat, I will try to use verbal commands and gestures such as holding out my left hand and shouting "stop". I will also likely move to put something between us if possible. But if those don't work, then I'm drawing my gun in the act of shooting to stop the threat. There likely isn't going to be a pause between the BG seeing my gun and my shot.

Yes, every situation is unique, and there is a possibility that drawing might make sense, but it opens up other potential problems.

Note that I am defining "threat" here as seeing a visible weapon, obvious disparity of force situation, etc. Not just some random guy walking up to me.
I get what you're saying, but here's my rationale...... I'm physically FAR past my prime and have some infirmities which put me at a disadvantage to a potential attacker right off the bat. If confronted with a situation where a reasonable probability exists that a gun might be necessary, I want to already have it in my hand. I absolutely agree that once you point the gun at someone, you better be ready and willing to pull the trigger. But you can also have the gun in your hand, at the low ready, without actually lining up your sights on the bad guy; and that implies both a willingness to use the gun if necessary, AND a willingness to not use it if not necessary. Whether or not it is necessary is then entirely in the other guy's hands, and you've just offered him a choice - get shot and maybe die, or stop what he's doing and get out alive and unhurt. When you're already aiming and about to pull the trigger, you offer a cornered rat no choice but to attack you, almost forcing you to shoot him.

Take the scenario out of your home, and put it inside a local quickie-mart...... you're in the back of the store when the place gets robbed up front. Do you find concealment/cover and get your weapon out and ready, or do you leave it holstered until the last possible second? My answer is this: you obviously can't walk around all the time with an upholstered gun in your hand. It would be neither legal nor practical. But, if you reasonably believe that there is a high probability of needing a gun, it is better to have it in your hand than not. If you are surprised by a situation, then you do what you have to do, and that will involve drawing at the last possible moment.....when it may be too late. But if you have knowledge of an impending probability, then you also do what you have to do. If I draw my gun with that impending probability, I still have an option to not use it if the situation defuses. I am absolutely willing to NOT shoot someone who complies appropriately to the threat of being shot if they continue doing whatever they're doing, by ceasing whatever it is they're doing and obeying my commands. I have no desire to shoot anyone, ever, but I will do so if necessary, and as a precaution against necessity, I want every advantage I can muster.....which means having my gun out before it is needed, and trusting my instincts as to whether or not the situation warrants it. I'm not a crazy man, and I am a reasonably good judge of what is happening in front of me, and I trust my own judgement.

Substitute the word "bat" for "gun" in the above statements of mine, and it makes perfect sense. If I had no gun, and a baseball bat were my means of self defense, should I wait until the other guy charged at me to pick up my bat, or should I pick up the bat first, hoping that would deter the attack, and then actually swing it at him if it becomes necessary?
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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

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Consider use of concealed SUL position:

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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

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Soccerdad1995
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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#22

Post by Soccerdad1995 »

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:This is one reason why I am not a huge fan of the "draw my gun" tactic, as opposed to "shoot to stop the threat". If I am being approached by a threat, I will try to use verbal commands and gestures such as holding out my left hand and shouting "stop". I will also likely move to put something between us if possible. But if those don't work, then I'm drawing my gun in the act of shooting to stop the threat. There likely isn't going to be a pause between the BG seeing my gun and my shot.

Yes, every situation is unique, and there is a possibility that drawing might make sense, but it opens up other potential problems.

Note that I am defining "threat" here as seeing a visible weapon, obvious disparity of force situation, etc. Not just some random guy walking up to me.
I get what you're saying, but here's my rationale...... I'm physically FAR past my prime and have some infirmities which put me at a disadvantage to a potential attacker right off the bat. If confronted with a situation where a reasonable probability exists that a gun might be necessary, I want to already have it in my hand. I absolutely agree that once you point the gun at someone, you better be ready and willing to pull the trigger. But you can also have the gun in your hand, at the low ready, without actually lining up your sights on the bad guy; and that implies both a willingness to use the gun if necessary, AND a willingness to not use it if not necessary. Whether or not it is necessary is then entirely in the other guy's hands, and you've just offered him a choice - get shot and maybe die, or stop what he's doing and get out alive and unhurt. When you're already aiming and about to pull the trigger, you offer a cornered rat no choice but to attack you, almost forcing you to shoot him.

Take the scenario out of your home, and put it inside a local quickie-mart...... you're in the back of the store when the place gets robbed up front. Do you find concealment/cover and get your weapon out and ready, or do you leave it holstered until the last possible second? My answer is this: you obviously can't walk around all the time with an upholstered gun in your hand. It would be neither legal nor practical. But, if you reasonably believe that there is a high probability of needing a gun, it is better to have it in your hand than not. If you are surprised by a situation, then you do what you have to do, and that will involve drawing at the last possible moment.....when it may be too late. But if you have knowledge of an impending probability, then you also do what you have to do. If I draw my gun with that impending probability, I still have an option to not use it if the situation defuses. I am absolutely willing to NOT shoot someone who complies appropriately to the threat of being shot if they continue doing whatever they're doing, by ceasing whatever it is they're doing and obeying my commands. I have no desire to shoot anyone, ever, but I will do so if necessary, and as a precaution against necessity, I want every advantage I can muster.....which means having my gun out before it is needed, and trusting my instincts as to whether or not the situation warrants it. I'm not a crazy man, and I am a reasonably good judge of what is happening in front of me, and I trust my own judgement.

Substitute the word "bat" for "gun" in the above statements of mine, and it makes perfect sense. If I had no gun, and a baseball bat were my means of self defense, should I wait until the other guy charged at me to pick up my bat, or should I pick up the bat first, hoping that would deter the attack, and then actually swing it at him if it becomes necessary?
I don't disagree with you (no surprise there), and you raise some good points. There is endless debate on the deterrence effect of a BG seeing that you have a gun. Holstered, low ready, pointed at them, are all stages of telling him the same thing - I have a gun and this fight will turn deadly if you push it. I think there can be value in sending that message. I also think there are very few absolutes in life, and I try not to categorically take an option off the table. That is why I acknowledged in another thread yesterday that I could be in a situation of drawing on someone and ordering them to comply. It's just not an option that I prefer in most cases because there are inherent problems when the BG "calls your bluff" so to speak.

In the Quickie Mart example, I would try to avoid intervening unless it was clear that the BG was going to kill the clerk or a customer. I would do just as you suggest. Get to cover and draw my weapon while trying to keep my eyes on the BG, and I would be prepared to fire if he approached me.
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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#23

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Dan1416 wrote:In a situation where I draw my firearm on an attacker and he complies by stopping the attack once he sees my gun but does not run away. What should I do? Should I command them to lay on the ground and hold them at gun point until the cops arrive? My concern with this approach is with on-lookers that would come across this scene. It may be that someone shoots me thinking that I'm robbing my attacker. Should I carry a pair of handcuffs to constraint the attacker then holster my gun? It almost seems like it is best to tell the attacker to run away but then they would be free to potentially attack someone else.

I know in all likely hood the attacker would run away at the site of my gun but I haven't been able to come up with a good solution for this scenario.
I've been reading the responses on this thread, but I'm still brought back to the title...Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat.

It seems to me that if he is not retreating, then he is not complying. If he is not complying, then he is still very much a threat.
Maintain control of the situation, remember your Tueller Principle, and get some distance between you and the attacker.
Your best option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
When those fail, aim for center mass.

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Re: Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat

#24

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Vol Texan wrote:
Dan1416 wrote:In a situation where I draw my firearm on an attacker and he complies by stopping the attack once he sees my gun but does not run away. What should I do? Should I command them to lay on the ground and hold them at gun point until the cops arrive? My concern with this approach is with on-lookers that would come across this scene. It may be that someone shoots me thinking that I'm robbing my attacker. Should I carry a pair of handcuffs to constraint the attacker then holster my gun? It almost seems like it is best to tell the attacker to run away but then they would be free to potentially attack someone else.

I know in all likely hood the attacker would run away at the site of my gun but I haven't been able to come up with a good solution for this scenario.
I've been reading the responses on this thread, but I'm still brought back to the title...Attacker Complies But Does Not Retreat.

It seems to me that if he is not retreating, then he is not complying. If he is not complying, then he is still very much a threat.
Maintain control of the situation, remember your Tueller Principle, and get some distance between you and the attacker.
Exactly why I said in my original response that I would back away to put distance between us if at all possible. Most of us can hit a man-sized target almost as easily from 10 yards as we can from 10 feet — but increasing your distance from 10 feet to 10 yards drastically diminishes the likelihood of having to shoot. Distance is your friend....... obtain it if you don't have it; make use of it if you do. Believe me, it is a win/win if you don't have to shoot someone, versus having to shoot someone in desperation. Once you pull the trigger, even if you wound but don't kill the attacker, and no bystanders are hit, your life will suddenly become much more complicated, not to mention expensive.

.....which is one more reason why stating one's willingness to shoot someone who is carting off one's television, with the attitude that they brought on themselves, is just plain silly. While citing the laws of consequences, it completely disregards those laws.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

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