Sign on NASA property

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SMRoot
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Sign on NASA property

Postby SMRoot » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:48 pm

Hello everyone,

Can someone help me understand some of the Federal Laws about possession of a handgun on Federal Property. I found one section of the law that basically said you can get a fine and be incarcerated (or both) if you bring a handgun into a Federal Facility. Facility seemed to be defined as a building or portion of a building where Federal employees normally work.

So, my real question is about NASA and its authority. Are there other laws that say that carrying on NASA property is illegal and that you'll be subject to a fine and/or prison? I saw this sign going into the NASA recreational facility. It's at a gate that stays open as long as that rec center is open and is not guarded. Does the sign mean that I can't carry into the facility (i.e. it's ok to leave it in my car?) or does it mean that I can't have it on the property at all?

Thanks for all you help. Here's your sign.

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Keith B
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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby Keith B » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:56 pm

Federal property is totally different than state or private. Normally, federal property is off-limits for firearms unless specifically stated they are allowed. I would suggest you leave it at home and don't go onto federal property with a firearm unless you have specific knowledge it is OK.
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WildBill
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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby WildBill » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:36 pm

Keith B wrote:Federal property is totally different than state or private. Normally, federal property is off-limits for firearms unless specifically stated they are allowed. I would suggest you leave it at home and don't go onto federal property with a firearm unless you have specific knowledge it is OK.

:iagree: This looks like the Gilruth Center at JSC. As I recall you don't have to go through the NASA security checkpoint to enter.
As Keith hinted, the laws regarding Federal Facilities are so complicated that I am not sure anyone can give a definitive answer to the question.
I used to go to the center for softball games and other activities and never even considered carrying or having a firearm in my car.
That is just my opinion, IANAL, etc. :tiphat:

BTW, SMRoot, a belated welcome to the Forum!
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WTR
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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby WTR » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:58 pm

I have found NASA to me one of the most strict of many Government Componds I have been on. This includes White Samds, Los Alamos ,Ft. Bliss and multiple Air Force Bases. I wouldn't take a weapon near one.

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JustSomeOldGuy
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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby JustSomeOldGuy » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:48 pm

google "18 USC Section 930", read it and weep.....

In summary, firearms are prohibited, not just in the buildings, but also on the property (like the post office parking lot). :banghead:
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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby treadlightly » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:42 pm

Do those strict regs include the parking lot at Space Center Houston, the tourist center?

Years ago I remember having to return to my car to get rid of my Leatherman, but security was understanding about that.

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tx mountaineer
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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby tx mountaineer » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:50 am

It is against federal law to carry a firearm at JSC including the Gilruth Center. As the sign states when you pass though the gate the Gilruth Center your car can be searched and carrying a firearm is not permitted.

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Liberty
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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby Liberty » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:10 am

treadlightly wrote:Do those strict regs include the parking lot at Space Center Houston, the tourist center?

Years ago I remember having to return to my car to get rid of my Leatherman, but security was understanding about that.

Space Center Houston is private property. I believe the building is posted, but the parking lot is good to go. It's been a while, but that is how it has been.
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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby chasfm11 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:20 am

Liberty wrote:
treadlightly wrote:Do those strict regs include the parking lot at Space Center Houston, the tourist center?

Years ago I remember having to return to my car to get rid of my Leatherman, but security was understanding about that.

Space Center Houston is private property. I believe the building is posted, but the parking lot is good to go. It's been a while, but that is how it has been.


We were there about two years ago. The building had a 30.06 sign which I assumed meant that it was private property and not owned by the government. However, I left my gun in the RV at a campground a couple of miles away. I believe that the tour tram does take you on to government property but that would not affect a car in the parking lot of the building at the tour's origin.
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Keith B
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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby Keith B » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:36 am

Space Center Houston is run by a non-profit, but the land is federal. However, I believe their policy is parking lot is OK, but that may not be 100% correct. I have done the same with mine and left it in the vehicle in the parking lot.
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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby jmorris » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:31 am

JustSomeOldGuy wrote:google "18 USC Section 930", read it and weep.....

In summary, firearms are prohibited, not just in the buildings, but also on the property (like the post office parking lot). :banghead:


Ah, not quite. I worked in a federal facility for a while. It was fine leaving the firearm in your vehicle.

(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2½ inches in length.
(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
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Keith B
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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby Keith B » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:20 am

jmorris wrote:
JustSomeOldGuy wrote:google "18 USC Section 930", read it and weep.....

In summary, firearms are prohibited, not just in the buildings, but also on the property (like the post office parking lot). :banghead:


Ah, not quite. I worked in a federal facility for a while. It was fine leaving the firearm in your vehicle.

(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2½ inches in length.
(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.


I agree that 18 USC Section 930 states facility and defines it as the building. The rub comes in with the Postal Service rules where the Supreme Court refused to hear the California 10th District Court ruling on 39 C.F.R. § 232.1(l) and let stand that the federal building ruling extended to the parking lot and other property owned by the USPS. https://www.ca10.uscourts.gov/opinions/13/13-1374.pdf

While two different regulations are in effect, I sure wouldn't want to try and fight 18 USC Section 930 as they would more than likely extend the 10th District Court view to 18 USC.
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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby ScottDLS » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:17 am

Keith B wrote:
jmorris wrote:
JustSomeOldGuy wrote:google "18 USC Section 930", read it and weep.....

In summary, firearms are prohibited, not just in the buildings, but also on the property (like the post office parking lot). :banghead:


Ah, not quite. I worked in a federal facility for a while. It was fine leaving the firearm in your vehicle.

(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2½ inches in length.
(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.


I agree that 18 USC Section 930 states facility and defines it as the building. The rub comes in with the Postal Service rules where the Supreme Court refused to hear the California 10th District Court ruling on 39 C.F.R. § 232.1(l) and let stand that the federal building ruling extended to the parking lot and other property owned by the USPS. https://www.ca10.uscourts.gov/opinions/13/13-1374.pdf

While two different regulations are in effect, I sure wouldn't want to try and fight 18 USC Section 930 as they would more than likely extend the 10th District Court view to 18 USC.


Title 18 is the US Criminal Code. It doesn't just get to be extended to any portion of the CFR that some official wants. There is NO mention of 18 USC 930 in the ruling. 39 CFR 232 regulates conduct on postal property (one of the provisions is you can't post any handbills). Violation is a Federal Infraction (as is a traffic ticket in DC). It is punishable by a fine (theoretically UP TO $5000) and 30 days in jail. 18 USC 930 is a federal misdemeanor and only applies to buildings/facilities that are posted, and in fact specifically excludes parking lots.

Other Federal property like NASA and USACOE property will have a CFR section with their authority to ban firearms. My suspicion is that most violations are infractions also, but I haven't researched it. On down side of 39 CFR 232 and other regulations that invoke a Federal INFRACTION is that if they have any jail time as a penalty, you would lose your LTC as Texas considers it a Class A misdemeanor.

There doesn't need to be a regulation saying you CAN carry a firearm on Federal property, only absence of one (or a law) saying you can't. In the case of NASA, there is likely a reg somewhere saying you can't and now that they put up a sign to notify you, you'd likely get convicted of the infraction. On they other hand for the Post Office I haven't seen too many signs prohibiting the "property" and there is some question about whether having the gun in your vehicle constitutes "carrying" it or "storing" it on postal property as the CFR prohibits. But the lawsuit in Colorado was the typical dumb DON'T ASK IF YOU DON'T WANT THE WRONG ANSWER...that gun rights people seem addicted to. A better strategy is to weigh the benefit of the activity against the worst case outcome IF the law doesn't go your way.

I wonder if people driving through Texas school zones with accessible rifles and off duty cops in Vermont school zones do this as they commit a Federal Felony by violating the Federal GFSZA. :evil2:
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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby RicoTX » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:37 pm

I don't understand how any republican is okay with government property being off limits and still honestly support 2A? Until that gets changed , I can only assume all of them are just enough 2A friendly to get NRA support...and thats it. I would love to be proven wrong...and soon.

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Re: Sign on NASA property

Postby Keith B » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:04 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
Title 18 is the US Criminal Code. It doesn't just get to be extended to any portion of the CFR that some official wants. There is NO mention of 18 USC 930 in the ruling. 39 CFR 232 regulates conduct on postal property (one of the provisions is you can't post any handbills). Violation is a Federal Infraction (as is a traffic ticket in DC). It is punishable by a fine (theoretically UP TO $5000) and 30 days in jail. 18 USC 930 is a federal misdemeanor and only applies to buildings/facilities that are posted, and in fact specifically excludes parking lots.

Other Federal property like NASA and USACOE property will have a CFR section with their authority to ban firearms. My suspicion is that most violations are infractions also, but I haven't researched it. On down side of 39 CFR 232 and other regulations that invoke a Federal INFRACTION is that if they have any jail time as a penalty, you would lose your LTC as Texas considers it a Class A misdemeanor.

There doesn't need to be a regulation saying you CAN carry a firearm on Federal property, only absence of one (or a law) saying you can't. In the case of NASA, there is likely a reg somewhere saying you can't and now that they put up a sign to notify you, you'd likely get convicted of the infraction. On they other hand for the Post Office I haven't seen too many signs prohibiting the "property" and there is some question about whether having the gun in your vehicle constitutes "carrying" it or "storing" it on postal property as the CFR prohibits. But the lawsuit in Colorado was the typical dumb DON'T ASK IF YOU DON'T WANT THE WRONG ANSWER...that gun rights people seem addicted to. A better strategy is to weigh the benefit of the activity against the worst case outcome IF the law doesn't go your way.

I wonder if people driving through Texas school zones with accessible rifles and off duty cops in Vermont school zones do this as they commit a Federal Felony by violating the Federal GFSZA. :evil2:


You willing to bet a paycheck on the fact that the courts wouldn't make the same ruling on property that they did for the post office? If it went the same path through the courts you can bet your bottom dollar they would.
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