Lewisville Western Days 51% signs

[mags]

Long time lurker, but first time poster. Hoping you guys can give me some tips on how to handle a local city incorrect signage.

The City of Lewisville hosts a great little festival in September of every year called Western Days (http://www.lewisvillewesterndays.com). There's been a few topics about this in the past on how they used to post 30.06 notices for this event. The festival is held downtown on public city streets and city owned plazas so the 30.06 notices can't be enforced. They have a private security firm that (poorly) wands folks as they enter. Now they’ve switched to a 51% notice. Here's what they added this past year to their online FAQ:
Q: What items are prohibited from being brought into the festival area?
A: No outside alcoholic beverages, bicycles, skateboards, personal transport vehicles or weapons are allowed. Pursuant to TABC regulation, as a permitted venue at which more than 51 percent of food and beverage sales is derived from alcoholic beverages, a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (Concealed Handgun Law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun.

I’ve done research by submitting FOIA requests to the city to obtain the TABC licenses they’re using for this event as well as the overall balance sheet for the event. They’re contracting out to Gilleys in Dallas for the alcohol and TABCs license locator does show that they hold a RED sign designation (I assume for their physical business location). However, the overall proceeds of the festival have never come close to being >51% due to alcohol sales. I've attached the files from the FOIA requests that I submitted to the city.

I’d like the city to remove this notice, or at least define a small >51% area where alcohol is to be consumed so that LTC holders aren’t removed due to a bad blanket policy on public grounds.

What's the best way to handle this? Should I file a complaint with the TABC? Or should I email this information to the city manager?

[roadkill]

Contact your local TABC office. They can look up the permit for you as well as the receipt totals. Ask them for the diagramed area the permit covers. They will have that.

I just went thru this with TABC about the fairgrounds in robstown and the red sign. Doesn't matter what the total receipts are for the venue, they only look at permit holders receipts.

Premise defined in Section 11.49(a) of the Code…"premises" means the grounds and all buildings, vehicles, and appurtenances pertaining to the grounds, including any adjacent premises if they are directly or indirectly under the control of the same person.

The licensed locations within RMB are diagramed to exclude portions of the grounds, Section 11.49(b)(1)…(b) (1) Subject to the approval of the commission or the administrator, and except as provided in Subsection (c) of this section, an applicant for a permit or license may designate a portion of the grounds, buildings, vehicles, and appurtenances to be excluded from the licensed premises.

They use the "directly under control" to exclude the "other" revenue that the fairgrounds generate outside of the permit holders business. In the case of the RMB fairgrounds its one entire building and small portion of another (around the concession stand I believe). I bet the western days is very similar and will be one tent and not the whole event. You will need to find this out and take it to the city/security/PD.

[chasfm11]

If you have the time, here is my suggestion.

1. The 51% is associated with a specific license. Find out exactly who holds that license. IMHO, you cannot go to the TABC until you can identify that license holder. Doing that make be more difficult than you think You may not find out with just an Open Records request.
2. Research that specific license. If it has a "gun sign = red" designation, it got it for a reason. If I were doing the research, I would go to the TABC with a "help me understand, please" request. If there there is a discrepancy with how the license was issued, they can take it from there. I have a hard time believing that TABC would knowingly issue a license for an event that fences off the entire downtown section of Lewisville and hanging a 51% parameter on it.
3. Try to get the financial reports for Western Days. Since it is a City sponsored event, there should be a financial disclosure. You may need those to counter the TABC license information. I believe that if the alcohol vendor shows a sales amount and the City financials show a completely different set of figures, that would be something that TABC could work with since the geography is the same.

Just my $.02 worth. I'd like to help you but am swamped with family medical issues at the moment. I'm probably one of the reasons for the 51% signs as I busted them by going through their wanding process a couple of years ago with my gun to watch my granddaughter dance at the big theater. I ended up getting Lewisville's finest involved and won.

[mags]

Contact your local TABC office. They can look up the permit for you as well as the receipt totals. Ask them for the diagramed area the permit covers. They will have that.

I just went thru this with TABC about the fairgrounds in robstown and the red sign. Doesn't matter what the total receipts are for the venue, they only look at permit holders receipts.

Premise defined in Section 11.49(a) of the Code…"premises" means the grounds and all buildings, vehicles, and appurtenances pertaining to the grounds, including any adjacent premises if they are directly or indirectly under the control of the same person.

The licensed locations within RMB are diagramed to exclude portions of the grounds, Section 11.49(b)(1)…(b) (1) Subject to the approval of the commission or the administrator, and except as provided in Subsection (c) of this section, an applicant for a permit or license may designate a portion of the grounds, buildings, vehicles, and appurtenances to be excluded from the licensed premises.

They use the "directly under control" to exclude the "other" revenue that the fairgrounds generate outside of the permit holders business. In the case of the RMB fairgrounds its one entire building and small portion of another (around the concession stand I believe). I bet the western days is very similar and will be one tent and not the whole event. You will need to find this out and take it to the city/security/PD.

Thanks, this is helpful. I've got the actual permit copies from the FOIA requests, but they don't have any diagrammed area of what it covers.

[locke_n_load]

Whenever you do contact TABC or the city, you could also make a point that the texas penal code says that a license holder commits and offense if they carry on the premises of a 51% establishment, with premises having the definition of inside or part of a building. Is open air grounds "inside or part of a building"? I don't think so, and should be brought up to them. The fact that the city posted "may not carry on this property" is not correct per Penal Code.

Q: What items are prohibited from being brought into the festival area?
A: No outside alcoholic beverages, bicycles, skateboards, personal transport vehicles or weapons are allowed. Pursuant to TABC regulation, as a permitted venue at which more than 51 percent of food and beverage sales is derived from alcoholic beverages, a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (Concealed Handgun Law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun.

TABC Code actually says:

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

[srothstein]

TABC Code actually says:

Minor technical correction but this is from the Penal Code and not the Alcoholic Beverage Code. The ABC has a different definition of premises which is used for the purposes of issuing the license. The Penal Code defines premises for the purpose of the offense committed. There is no case law yet to say which definition applies to a LTC and a 51% location, especially at a fair or place like that where there are no "structures" and the licensed premise is a fenced off street. I think, and it is just my opinion, that the trial court might rule in favor of the ABC definition while the appeals court would rule in favor of the PC definition, if the lawyer asked it to. As noted elsewhere, appeals courts tend to be much stricter in adhering to the exact wording of the law.


On a different note:

They’re contracting out to Gilleys in Dallas for the alcohol and TABCs license locator does show that they hold a RED sign designation (I assume for their physical business location)

When you contact TABC, you need to verify whether Gilley's is contracting out on a catering license or on a temporary permit. Their main site license is only good for that one location. TABC does have a catering license which could be used only at locations other than the home office. I would have to dig deeper into TABC regulations to know if a catering license can make a location 51% or not. The city might actually get a temporary permit each year for the festival, either in their own name or in the contractor's name. Almost all temporary permits are given as 51% because the permittee is usually only selling alcoholic beverages and therefore is above the 51% limit. The logic for this is as stated, they look at what the licensee makes, not the whole venue.

I have been convinced (in another thread recently) that this is not being done as per the actual code and we might be able to get TABC to change it when we get some time without the legislature being in session and let TSRA do their research and liaison work. TABC might be a little shy of making changes right now, especially with the close eye of the legislature and the media on them, but I trust TSRA to know when and how to approach them with this.

[locke_n_load]

TABC Code actually says:

Minor technical correction but this is from the Penal Code and not the Alcoholic Beverage Code. The ABC has a different definition of premises which is used for the purposes of issuing the license. The Penal Code defines premises for the purpose of the offense committed. There is no case law yet to say which definition applies to a LTC and a 51% location, especially at a fair or place like that where there are no "structures" and the licensed premise is a fenced off street. I think, and it is just my opinion, that the trial court might rule in favor of the ABC definition while the appeals court would rule in favor of the PC definition, if the lawyer asked it to. As noted elsewhere, appeals courts tend to be much stricter in adhering to the exact wording of the law.


On a different note:

They’re contracting out to Gilleys in Dallas for the alcohol and TABCs license locator does show that they hold a RED sign designation (I assume for their physical business location)

When you contact TABC, you need to verify whether Gilley's is contracting out on a catering license or on a temporary permit. Their main site license is only good for that one location. TABC does have a catering license which could be used only at locations other than the home office. I would have to dig deeper into TABC regulations to know if a catering license can make a location 51% or not. The city might actually get a temporary permit each year for the festival, either in their own name or in the contractor's name. Almost all temporary permits are given as 51% because the permittee is usually only selling alcoholic beverages and therefore is above the 51% limit. The logic for this is as stated, they look at what the licensee makes, not the whole venue.

I have been convinced (in another thread recently) that this is not being done as per the actual code and we might be able to get TABC to change it when we get some time without the legislature being in session and let TSRA do their research and liaison work. TABC might be a little shy of making changes right now, especially with the close eye of the legislature and the media on them, but I trust TSRA to know when and how to approach them with this.

I don't know why I wrote TABC, as I definitely only know TPC. I couldn't imagine a license holder being charged under TABC code. Anyone have that definition handy?

[ScottDLS]

The crime of carrying a weapon in a licensed 51% premises is not in the TABC code. There are a few crimes in the TABC code but they are directly related to alcoholic beverages, not weapons. If you are charged with violation of 46.035 for carrying a handgun on a PREMISES of a TABC 51% licensee then the definition of premises is specifically stated in that particular section of PC 46. If a court says the sidewalk or outside area of Lewisville that is not a building is a premises because of the TABC license boundaries, then they are just wrong, because the law says exactly the opposite. The question then becomes do you want to become the proverbial "test case". If they don't have metal detectors I personally would conceal and carry. You could also try to complain to the AG that the City is violating GC 411.209 (fines for signs) but that has proven effectively useless for two years now. I live near Lewisville and am considering trying carrying a long gun to the festival just to see what happens....nahhhh....I don't want to be the TEST CASE

[rotor]

If I remember carrying past a red sign is a felony so not worth the risk. On the other hand a Keltec sub2000 in a briefcase might be very nice or as Scott says, any other rifle. If it were me I would either boycott or not carry at all. This is just too much hassle for no reward. I would like to see the response from security with a concealed Keltec. I am sure they would find some reason to not let you in.

[apostate]

.

[GeekwithaGun]

Anything new, western days is coming up

[Lynyrd]

If I remember carrying past a red sign is a felony so not worth the risk. On the other hand a Keltec sub2000 in a briefcase might be very nice or as Scott says, any other rifle. If it were me I would either boycott or not carry at all. This is just too much hassle for no reward. I would like to see the response from security with a concealed Keltec. I am sure they would find some reason to not let you in.

It's only a felony indoors, and that's assuming it's a legit 51% license, not merely another scare tactic by tin pot hoplophobes.

Hoplophobes? Had to look that one up. This site is now a teaching aid in expanding our vocabulary!

[LabRat]

I looked at the FAQ from the page listed for Western Days today (20-Sept-2017) and saw this:

Q: What items are prohibited from being brought into the festival area?
A: No outside alcoholic beverages, bicycles, skateboards, personal transport vehicles or illegal weapons are allowed.

Did not see anything in the FAQ about a 51% notification or warning.
Did it change recently or did I just miss it?

I don't do Facebook (for anything) maybe it was listed there and I don't have access?

Just checking.
LabRat

[crazy2medic]

No illegal weapons are allowed.
Question, this section of the prohibited items seems like a chink in their armor, if you have a LTC your handgun is no longer "illegal" I'm I correct?

[mags]

Looks like the city updated the page and removed the 51% info! Great news!