UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

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E.Marquez
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UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby E.Marquez » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:27 pm

http://www.kvia.com/crime/5-alleged-ban ... /603318622

OK so
This forum is filled with discussion on if when you have LTC, you are always carrying under its authority if armed. Others will say, no, you can be in your car, also a place you can have the weapon and not be carrying under the authority of your LTC.
Motorcycles are vehicles.
o It is against the law for a criminal street gang member to carry under the authority of an LTC.
o Best I can find, there is not such prohibition to carry under MPA in a vehicle.
Banditos are a criminal street gang IAW Texas law.
o 5 Banditos were arrested and charged with UCW
o some number of those arrested had an LTC ( have read in other articles, but for the discussion lets just assume it is true for now)


Assuming the above are facts for discussion purposes....it appears law enforcement and a DA in Elpaso feels you can not have an LTC and NOT carry under its authority as the only charges these folks were charged with is Unlawful carry by a LTC holder. .
Follow up question.... If I remember right, the LTC paperwork we submit, makes you affirm you are not a member of a street gang..If these folks are charged and convicted of UCW of a street gang member with an LTC...Should they also be charged with submitting a false application? (assuming the DA can prove there were Banditos members before the date of LTC application.

OK, poke holes in all that..If I have missed something, please point it out and provide a cite.
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Re: Follow the bouncing "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby jmorris » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:44 pm

E.Marquez wrote:http://www.kvia.com/crime/5-alleged-bandidos-gang-members-facing-weapons-charges/603318622

OK so
[list=]This forum is filled with discussion on if when you have LTC, you are always carrying under its authority if armed. Others will say, no, you can be in your car, also a place you can have the weapon and not be carrying under the authority of your LTC.
Motorcycles are vehicles.


Agree

E.Marquez wrote:It is against the law for a criminal street gang member to carry under the authority of an LTC.


OK, never heard this. Don't remember it in the application but that was 10+ ago.

E.Marquez wrote:Best I can find, there is not such prohibition to carry under MPA in a vehicle.


Looks like there is to me.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person’s control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view, unless the person is licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and the handgun is carried in a shoulder or belt holster; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

There's nothing in that article that says they hold LTCs so the arrest is valid under 46.02. If it was found out that some held LTCs then they might be held pending investigation into whether they acquired them illegally.

E.Marquez wrote:Banditos are a criminal street gang IAW Texas law.
5 Banditos were arrested and charged with UCW
3 of those 5 had an LTC ( have read in other articles, but for the discussion lets just assume it is true for now)
[/list]
Assuming the above are facts for discussion purposes....it appears law enforcement and a DA in Elpaso feels you can not have an LTC and NOT carry under its authority as the only charges these folks were charged with is Unlawful carry by a LTC holder. .
Follow up question.... If I remember right, the LTC paperwork we submit, makes you affirm you are not a member of a street gang..If these folks are charged and convicted of UCW of a street gang member with an LTC...Should they also be charged with submitting a false application? (assuming the DA can prove there were Banditos members before the date of LTC application.

OK, poke holes in all that..If I have missed something, please point it out and provide a cite.
Last edited by jmorris on Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby apostate » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:45 pm

I believe there's at least one premise wrong in the above.

It is MPA that doesn't cover somebody who is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

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Re: UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby E.Marquez » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:51 pm

apostate wrote:I believe there's at least one premise wrong in the above.

It is MPA that doesn't cover somebody who is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

Thats my point... MPA has no Street Gang verbiage like the LTC laws do...
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Re: Follow the bouncing "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby E.Marquez » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:56 pm

jmorris wrote:
E.Marquez wrote:It is against the law for a criminal street gang member to carry under the authority of an LTC.

OK, never heard this. Don't remember it in the application but that was 10+ ago.

In part
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:

2 (C) a member of a criminal street gang
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Re: UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby bblhd672 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:04 pm

HB 815 Motorist Protection Act specifically states that members of criminal street gangs are not permitted to carry guns in vehicles under MPA.

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person
intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or
her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person
or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a
Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance
regulating traffic;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm;
or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as
defined by Section 71.01.
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Re: UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby E.Marquez » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:05 pm

OK I think I see where I went wrong
The Street gang prohibition applies to what is commonly called MPA, as well as an LTC.
Either way, a street gang member is prohibited.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view, unless the person is licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and the handgun is carried in a shoulder or belt holster; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.


The 2017 Texas Gang Threat Assessment does list the Banditos as a gang... but I dont know if thats a lawful acknowledgment that Texas as named that MC as a street gang.
Is there a definitive list of "groups" in law, or policy that by name lists "street Gang's"?
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Re: UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby E.Marquez » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:08 pm

bblhd672 wrote:HB 815 Motorist Protection Act specifically states that members of criminal street gangs are not permitted to carry guns in vehicles under MPA.
]

Yes I see that now, thanks.
Posted above as it is int the statute vice the HB.. but the verbiage is the same.
I was getting hung up on A before C but not after banana :biggrinjester:

I was thinking the statute was COMPLETELY separate for both, but it is not.

It basically says don't carry a concealed gun if...
you don't have an LTC
or if you are a street gang member
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Re: UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby The Annoyed Man » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:36 pm

E.Marquez wrote:
bblhd672 wrote:HB 815 Motorist Protection Act specifically states that members of criminal street gangs are not permitted to carry guns in vehicles under MPA.
]

Yes I see that now, thanks.
Posted above as it is int the statute vice the HB.. but the verbiage is the same.
I was getting hung up on A before C but not after banana :biggrinjester:

I was thinking the statute was COMPLETELY separate for both, but it is not.

It basically says don't carry a concealed gun if...
you don't have an LTC
or if you are a street gang member

Isn't being a known gang member a disqualifier for mere possession of a firearm (at any time in any place) in Texas? Or am I remembering that wrong?
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Re: UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby WTR » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:43 pm

We're these guys caught in NM or TX ? I know they were from NM headed to a funeral in TX.


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Re: UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby WTR » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:03 pm

They were arrested in TX. 4 on cycles and one in a truck. Where does the MPV take effect.


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Re: UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby nimravus01 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:05 pm

E.Marquez wrote:The 2017 Texas Gang Threat Assessment does list the Banditos as a gang... but I dont know if thats a lawful acknowledgment that Texas as named that MC as a street gang.
Is there a definitive list of "groups" in law, or policy that by name lists "street Gang's"?


Chapter 71 defines street gang as this:
(d) "Criminal street gang" means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities.

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Re: UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby E.Marquez » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:10 pm

WTR wrote:They were arrested in TX. 4 on cycles and one in a truck. Where does the MPV take effect.

On the motorcycle and in the truck.... But that is the obvious and simple answer, so either i don't understand your question or you were being rhetorical :tiphat:
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Re: UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby E.Marquez » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:17 pm

nimravus01 wrote:
E.Marquez wrote:The 2017 Texas Gang Threat Assessment does list the Banditos as a gang... but I dont know if thats a lawful acknowledgment that Texas as named that MC as a street gang.
Is there a definitive list of "groups" in law, or policy that by name lists "street Gang's"?


Chapter 71 defines street gang as this:
(d) "Criminal street gang" means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities.

Yes I understand that and I think posted it already ... the question is, not what does the statute say, it is this part" who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities." that must be asserted and assigned to the club to make the statue applicable.
If a MC "continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities." the state would be charging them with the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) I assume if they had the proof required.

In any case, you or I might say the statute applies, but we don't matter. If Texas has declared club X Y or Z a criminal street gang, Im sure it must be listed as such other then an annual Threat Assessment.
I guess I'll dig back in to last years Threat Assessment and see there is an included or linked document or site that has what Im looking for. I really doubt the list of known and declared street gangs active in Texas is a confidential report not publicly accessible. Perhaps the Texas Gang Threat Assessment is the actual legally binding document I think it might be, and if they are listed there as a street gang, thats good enough to enforce the statute we all keep posting.

Thank you for your input. :tiphat:
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Re: UCW & Gang members Follow the "I dont know what I dont know" ball

Postby 5thGenTexan » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:14 pm

Ahhh the Bandidos can't possibly be a street gang (they're just a motorcycle club that happens to deal drugs, prostitution and burglary), too many of their membership own guns and we know that passing a law means the bad guys will just not carry a gun where or when they are forbidden to. Look at how safe schools, bars and colleges are when guns are banned.
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