Self review after pulling weapon - long post

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ldj1002
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Re: Self review after pulling weapon - long post

Postby ldj1002 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:51 am

OK. This brings up something I have never agreed with. I hear to never pull your weapon unless you're going to use it. In this case all worked great. Now explain to me why he should have shot this person?

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Scott B.
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Re: Self review after pulling weapon - long post

Postby Scott B. » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:19 am

It's an easy saying for a complicated subject.

If you are justified in using this form of force you do so understanding the potential consequences - the immediate and the subsequent. It doesn't mean you must proceed to deadly force, but you better prepared for that outcome. Hopefully, this form of force stops the escalation of the threat.
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PackinPig
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Re: Self review after pulling weapon - long post

Postby PackinPig » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:01 am

Great work! Thanks for sharing your experience so that it can be debriefed and we may educate ourselves.
Regarding force, I believe the penal code states that the threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this means that if you can use deadly force then you can threaten deadly force. In other words, don't make false promises that you cant (legally) backup. :lol::

The only piece of info that I could think to add to this scenario is to remember backdrops (where the bullets will go). If I'm standing in front of a gas pump or the target is in front of a gas pump, you might draw and then move toward cover without a flammable object behind you or the target. Of course, this is an afterthought and isn't something that many (including me) would think about during a tense situation. This is also where breaking out of adrenaline induced "tunnel vision" becomes important.
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Re: Self review after pulling weapon - long post

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:29 am

ldj1002 wrote:OK. This brings up something I have never agreed with. I hear to never pull your weapon unless you're going to use it. In this case all worked great. Now explain to me why he should have shot this person?


I prefer the saying "never draw your weapon unless you are PREPARED to use it." To me that is more accurate, because any time you draw your gun you need to be willing to use it, but you should constantly be re-evaluating the situation and modifying your actions accordingly.
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Re: Self review after pulling weapon - long post

Postby RogueUSMC » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:29 am

ldj1002 wrote:OK. This brings up something I have never agreed with. I hear to never pull your weapon unless you're going to use it. In this case all worked great. Now explain to me why he should have shot this person?

Once you clear leather, a script is set in motion. You should have preplanned how it will play out for yourself beforehand. The only conscious decision that needs to be made should be when to stop the script.
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JustSomeOldGuy
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Re: Self review after pulling weapon - long post

Postby JustSomeOldGuy » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:44 am

"You are lucky you are old or I would get out and beat you".


threat of force is present, age reference implies that the disparity of force would be significant (potentially deadly)

My M&P 45 appeared in my hand at low ready as I took a couple steps back


measured response to threat of force. Pointing gun at target, advancing, or saying "I'm going to cap your a**" would be aggressive/escalation moves. Stepping back (yeah, it's primarily to gain space/reaction time, but we won't tell THEM that), displaying that you are ready to counter the threat (but not acquiring target), is comparatively non-aggressive/non-escalation. Classic Lott/Kleck "guns PREVENT crime" stuff.
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ldj1002
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Re: Self review after pulling weapon - long post

Postby ldj1002 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:53 pm

ldj1002 wrote:OK. This brings up something I have never agreed with. I hear to never pull your weapon unless you're going to use it. In this case all worked great. Now explain to me why he should have shot this person?


I have read responses and still not clear. BTW I think priusron did a great job with this encounter. However I have read several times on this forum in the past where a person pulled his weapon. People on this forum have replied that they should have never done it until the situation got bad enough to use it. I'm not sure about the law, it is arbitrary to me, but common since tells me it is better to pull your gun before it gets to a shooting. In this case the bad guy left. If he hadn't and lunged at priusron he have had to then get the gun and in a hurry with a lot of adrenaline flowing. Who knows what would have happened?

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Re: Self review after pulling weapon - long post

Postby oljames3 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:17 pm

PackinPig wrote:Great work! Thanks for sharing your experience so that it can be debriefed and we may educate ourselves.
Regarding force, I believe the penal code states that the threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this means that if you can use deadly force then you can threaten deadly force. In other words, don't make false promises that you cant (legally) backup. ...

Texas Penal Code Title 2, Chapter 9, Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm
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Re: Self review after pulling weapon - long post

Postby oljames3 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:30 pm

ldj1002 wrote:OK. This brings up something I have never agreed with. I hear to never pull your weapon unless you're going to use it. In this case all worked great. Now explain to me why he should have shot this person?

I feel that the safest place for my pistol is in its holster. The next safest place is in my hand.

Texas Penal Code section 9.04 describes THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. After other appropriate de-escalation has failed, I would draw my pistol as the first step in stopping a threat of death or serious bodily injury. Time/distance/situation permitting, I would stop at count 2 of my draw stroke, pistol high on my chest with muzzle averted, to give verbal commands one last chance to stop the threat. I have made the decision that I am prepared to shoot, if required, to stop the threat. I can fire accurately from count 2.

I think OP did well. No one was shot, no one was hurt, and OP went home with his wife. I don't have to shoot to win.
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