Gun shows posted 30.06 / 30.07

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twomillenium
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Re: Gun shows posted 30.06 / 30.07

Postby twomillenium » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:05 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
twomillenium wrote:PC 30.05 Criminal Trespass defines the trespass that occurs without "effective consent". IMO Effective consent is given when the firearm has been checked and ziplocked so that it cannot be used in this condition. Effective consent is given as long as the conditions presented by the owner or those in authority are followed. Since the 06 and 07 signs are present at entrance then that would mean no concealed or open carry that is not in the conditions authorized by the event.


I thought that PC30.05 did not apply to LTC holders if the reason for the trespass was the carrying of a handgun. Wasn't this the whole reason that 30.06 was passed the first place? Because of fears that a generic "gun buster" sign could run afoul of 30.05?

ETA the relevant text from 30.05

(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:


(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden;  and


(2) the person was carrying:


(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,  [FN1]+ to carry a handgun;  and


(B) a handgun:


(i) in a concealed manner;  or


(ii) in a shoulder or belt holster.

30.05 has to do with trespass. Under the authority of LTC you trespass past a 06 or 07 signage UNLESS you have effective consent.
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Re: Gun shows posted 30.06 / 30.07

Postby bmwrdr » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:23 pm

warnmar10 wrote:
bmwrdr wrote:The only difference is a concealed handgun is assumed to be loaded and the checked in gun is checked an unloaded.
Is that distinction in the law or the lore?


Both I'd say.

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bmwrdr
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Re: Gun shows posted 30.06 / 30.07

Postby bmwrdr » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:25 pm

bmwrdr wrote:
warnmar10 wrote:
bmwrdr wrote:The only difference is a concealed handgun is assumed to be loaded and the checked in gun is checked an unloaded.
Is that distinction in the law or the lore?


Both I'd say, it is a firearm loaded or unloaded.

:tiphat:
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Re: Gun shows posted 30.06 / 30.07

Postby flechero » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:19 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
flechero wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:
flechero wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote: assume that...


You can't reason this... if reason applied to the situation, the "rules" would be different.

The only assumption that I'd make in this case is that the ride would not be worth the cost, even if you eventually beat it. I leave my weapon in the car or unload and carry in as if I were selling.


Ah, the "RIDE (oh the horror!!!!!). Well I choose to not live my life in fear of a wrongful arrest. I'm not that worried about being wrongfully arrested or charged for a variety of reasons, including the fact that a "ride" is unlikely for an offense with a max $200 fine, and besides that there is no way to completely avoid the risk of arrest for something that is not illegal. A LEO could arrest me right now as I am sitting in my office because they wrongfully believe that wearing shoes is illegal. Yes, some LEO's are ignorant. Fortunately, most aren't, But even if they are that ignorant, there isn't much I can do other than seek compensation after the fact. I choose instead to live my life enjoying all of my freedoms to the maximum extent that I am allowed to do so in compliance with the law.

For this thread, I am just concerned with whether one would in fact be in violation of section 30.06 in the above scenario. I realized others might also be afraid of various monsters under their beds. But that is an endless and unavoidable topic that isn't really something you can fully avoid.


I could live without the condescension, thank you.

I have lived and walked in a lot of gray area in my life but there are a few places where the "risk" of a wrongful ride or other consequence outweighs the risk in carrying. Since I live in Bell county and there is a rich history of poor CHL treatment, combined with about 2 dozen sherrif's deputies at the small gun shows (including the parking lots) I feel less risk walking into the show and back out without my carry gun loaded. Under other circumstances, different behavior applies.

If any of this gunshow signage was cut and dried we wouldn't have any threads on it... let alone one or two a month. And it's been proven over and over that many shows are posted improperly. THat doesn't stop the metal detectors or the leo's from making people comply. Asfor compensation for a wrongful arrest... best of luck with that! Most are very fortunate not to have other charges added to cover the initial error.


First off, I apologize for the condescension.

I just get very tired of the fear that a lot of folks here have about being arrested for things that are not illegal. Yes, there are ignorant LEO's out there who might make an honest mistake and cite someone for a crime they didn't commit. Yes there are also power hungry LEO's who will cite or otherwise harass law abiding folks because they are on a power trip. But I maintain my faith that the majority of LEO's fall into neither category and will not arrest someone who is obeying all laws. If we feel that these "bad apple" LEO's are more than a minority, then other action may be appropriate. Far too many of our citizens choose to live in fear of our LEO servants, IMHO. When this fear is taken to the extreme, people will be afraid to get out of bed for fear of being arrested. And you may be right that we have little recourse or hope for fair compensation in those cases of government / LEO over reach. All I can say is that when people believe that they have no possibility for justice within the system, they will eventually change the system, one way or the other. But we are getting pretty far afield here.

Getting back to the point of my OP, I think a lot of the gun show related legal issues are actually cut and dried. It is not illegal for me to carry a concealed gun into a gun show that is held at the GRB convention center in Houston, for example, because that facility is government owned. This is true regardless of any signage that may be present. By contrast, I don't think the issue I asked about in my OP is cut and dried. Which is why I asked the question about the law.


We're good, thanks. :tiphat:

With the exception of the gun show, specifically- I think you and I agree on this subject. I'm apt to carry where legal, unless I know there is a metal detector or LEO working the door for that purpose.


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Re: Gun shows posted 30.06 / 30.07

Postby roadkill » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:30 pm

flechero wrote:
With the exception of the gun show, specifically- I think you and I agree on this subject. I'm apt to carry where legal, unless I know there is a metal detector or LEO working the door for that purpose.


If it’s a govt building and legal and they are using LEO and metal detector to prevent carry file an internal affairs complaint and/or start a dialogue with the chief. You can get them to stop doing this, they may very likely not even realize what their officers are doing in those offduty jobs.

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Re: Gun shows posted 30.06 / 30.07

Postby C-dub » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:56 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:Ah, the "RIDE (oh the horror!!!!!).

This was a rough ride for one of our forum members. Some of us still remember this. He eventually got all charges dismissed, but it was a heck of a ride.
http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31719
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.

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Re: Gun shows posted 30.06 / 30.07

Postby parabelum » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:32 pm

C-dub wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:Ah, the "RIDE (oh the horror!!!!!).

This was a rough ride for one of our forum members. Some of us still remember this. He eventually got all charges dismissed, but it was a heck of a ride.
http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31719



I browsed through that thread last night. Good reminder of how far we’ve gotten here in Texas with 2A. That now with OC passed, in addition to volunteer emergency services personnel bill, we live in a slightly different world. Sometimes I forget gains made, that was a good reminder as I remember being paranoid that I’m not “printing” with my g26.
Sorry for slight off topic post.
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Scott in Houston
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Re: Gun shows posted 30.06 / 30.07

Postby Scott in Houston » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:36 pm

Lonf thread so if this was stated earlier, my mistake, but the issue of arrest was brought up...

Unless you’re at a hospital or other venue that’s outlined in the law to be a Class A, you won’t be arrested. It’s a class C ticket and fine.

I avoid 30.06 places the best I can but don’t live in ear of them either.

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Re: Gun shows posted 30.06 / 30.07

Postby ScottDLS » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:49 pm

Scott in Houston wrote:Lonf thread so if this was stated earlier, my mistake, but the issue of arrest was brought up...

Unless you’re at a hospital or other venue that’s outlined in the law to be a Class A, you won’t be arrested. It’s a class C ticket and fine.

I avoid 30.06 places the best I can but don’t live in ear of them either.


You "could" legally be arrested for a class C, but you likely won't.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Re: Gun shows posted 30.06 / 30.07

Postby ScottDLS » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:22 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:OK, here's something I just thought of and I would like to get y'all's opinion.

Let's say a gun show is posted with valid 30.06 and 30.07 signage, and is not held on government owned property. There are officers at the door checking guns that you bring in for sale. They verify the guns are unloaded, zip tie them, and then allow you to place the gun in a case that you can carry throughout the venue. They also allow you to remove the gun from the case to show it to prospective buyers.

If you have a LTC, then how are you not violating 30.06? I believe that carrying a gun in a case that is in your hand meets the definition of carrying concealed (if not that solves a host of other 30.06 issues). Is it because you are not carrying under the authority of your LTC while at the gun show, so the 30.06 sign never applies in the first place? Or is it possible to get conditional verbal authority that overrides a 30.06 restriction, but only so long as you follow the conditions laid out by the owner? If you then violate those conditions, could you be charged with a 30.06 violation if you were willing to leave if / when asked?

Basically, I am wondering whether a 30.06 sign could be enforced at all in such a situation where representatives of the Gun Show management are openly allowing people to carry weapons in spite of the signage?


This comes up often and seems to have since 30.06 was passed. The better question of law is what allows a non-LTC to carry a handgun AT ALL at a gun show....loaded or unloaded, zip tied or not, concealed or open. Absent an exception from 46.15, it is illegal to carry a handgun in public in Texas TXPC 46.02. So if a non-CHL carries a on privately or publically owned property, not their own, for a gun show they are committing a class A misdemeanor (unlawful carrying of a weapon). It doesn't matter if the managers of the venue gave you permission. They can't give you permission to break the law. Since gun shows have been going on in Texas since before CHL, one might wonder how people have been getting away with it for all these years. One argument is that people attending a gun show are engaged in "sporting activity". I think that's a little weak, but it's the only exception (i.e. Defense to Prosecution) that I can find. Lot's of people were "traveling" before CHL too. :???:

(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person’s own premises or premises under the person’s control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person’s control.


PC §46.15. NON-APPLICABILITY.
...
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(1) is in the actual discharge of official duties as a member of the armed forces or state military forces as defined by Section 437.001, Government Code, or as a guard employed by a penal institution;
(2) is traveling;
(3) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor’s residence, motor vehicle, or watercraft, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;
(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Private Security Board, if the person is engaged in the performance of the person’s duties as an officer commissioned under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person’s place of assignment and is wearing the officer’s uniform and carrying the officer’s weapon in plain view;
(6) is carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and
(B) a handgun:
(i) in a concealed manner; or
(ii) in a shoulder or belt holster;


So show me where it says you can carry a handgun without a license at a gun show, or gun shop for that matter... :rules:

I have "heard" that the Texas courts have decided that since you have the right to own a handgun in Texas, you must therefore have the right to purchase or procure it and bring to a location where you may legally carry it...like your property or property under your control.

As far as carrying past a 30.06/7 sign without a CHL/LTC, that is irrelevant if you don't have a LTC, because it doesn't apply to non-LTC. For an LTC it is illegal (class C misdemeanor) to carry past a sign, unless the owner gives you permission.....by say having you unload and zip tie your gun; or unless you are a Volunteer Emergency Responder, or a cop, or in the parking lot of your employer. But no LTC and you are theoretically committing a class A misdemeanor.

As for gun shows on publicly owned property not otherwise prohibited, but unlawfully posted 30.06/7, I personally do not give a whit what the show promoter/lessee wishes, I will carry (concealed). If they're wanding and patting down, I'll probably leave as unless I'm willing to physically force my way in, or defeat the screening, there's really not much I can do. But there's also not much the law may "properly" do to me for carrying either. :txflag:
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"


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