Commitment to force as a LTC vs. LEO

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Tex1961
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Commitment to force as a LTC vs. LEO

Postby Tex1961 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:33 am

http://www.fox4news.com/news/mesquite-p ... ar-burglar

Short version of above article. LEO shoots bad guy, bad guy continues to fight with LEO, takes 3 to put into cuffs.

Having never fired my weapon in a self defense situation, and I know this topic has / is being discussed thousands of times on hundreds of forums, classrooms, etc.etc..

In a split second with adrenalin coursing through your body, tunnel vision, shaking like a leaf.. a thousand thoughts running through your brain..

----------------------------------

I go to the range on average of 4 - 6 times per month.. The paper target manufacturers have given me a MVP award for keeping their profits high.... I've taken classes, looking to take more self defense classes, I practice drawing, I practice double taps, anything I can think of...

The debates, 9mm vs 10mm vs 45acp, vs 380 rages on.

How many rounds / magazines do I carry....

In the end.. It's YOU and the BAD GUY.... maybe 3 bad guys..

I know this post is a bit discombobulated and it's meant to be... Just like what will happen to your brain when or if you ever get into a situation... All of the prep work we do to CC... what is your level of force... 1 bullet... empty your magazine....

Train people... and keep firing until the threat has been removed... Not saying shoot to kill... but stop the threat....
NORM CROSBY
When you go into court you are putting your fate into the hands of twelve people who weren’t smart enough to get out of jury duty.


cmgee67
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Re: Commitment to force as a LTC vs. LEO

Postby cmgee67 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:51 am

If I ever have to use my firearm I plan on shooting until the threat stops and is no longer a threat. This is hard to really talk about because most of us myself included have never been in that situation. I have see a lot of the Active self protection videos and many times people shoot more than they think. I’ve even seen them run the gun dry. So that’s why I carry a minimum of 14 rounds. 7 in gun seven in backup mag. I would not think I’d need more than 2-3 shots but heaven forbid I do I don’t wanna be caught with my trousers down so I always carry a back up mag.
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Soccerdad1995
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Re: Commitment to force as a LTC vs. LEO

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:36 am

There is a corollary to this which is "when do you get actively involved versus being a good witness". Personally, I have decided to draw my line for active involvement pretty close to the "conservative" edge. I will get actively involved in a situation when myself or my family is in danger of grave harm. I may also get involved in other situations, include protection of others and protection of my property. But those are a definite "maybe" instead of a "will do".

This decision makes the commitment to force decision simpler, IMHO. Since I am only definitely getting involved when there is a real risk of significant harm to me or mine, I am pretty likely to commit to the use of force (to some extent) when I do get involved. The level of force will be whatever is needed to stop the threat. Starting with verbal, then physical, etc., and possibly ending up at deadly force. Always asking myself "is this enough, or do I need to go further?"

Of course, some scenarios are pretty cut and dried. Someone breaks into my house at night and I am at a minimum confronting them with a gun in my hand. Why? Because I don't get up to investigate a "bump in the night" without first retrieving my night stand gun, and I don't wear a holster, or belt when I sleep, so it will be in my hand. It still doesn't mean that I'm immediately escalating to deadly force as soon as I see a potential threat inside my house, though.

I don't think we can have definitive answers in these types of situations. Ultimately, the best we can do is to know all of our SD options, and think through potential "what if" scenarios.
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srothstein
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Re: Commitment to force as a LTC vs. LEO

Postby srothstein » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:26 pm

I have seen a lot of people who preach to shoot to stop the threat. There is a lot to be said for this, especially in the LEO world. And it is something you might need to consider as a citizen in a self-defense situation.

But here is another point to consider. What is your purpose in this situation? Is it to make an arrest or to just survive? A police officer cannot just run away but a citizen who is not an officer can. The officer must shoot until the threat is teminated and the arrest can be made.

I suggest that you start seriously thinking about a second point for stopping. Instead of just shooting until the threat is stopped, a multiple criteria case could be to shoot until the threat is stopped OR you can leave safely. There truly is a slight difference between these two positions. Consider the case of a single person trying to rob you. You shoot him and he drops to the ground, but still has the gun. He might still be considered a threat. But, it might also be possible for you to run away and make it. Do you need to keep shooting him then?
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Excaliber
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Re: Commitment to force as a LTC vs. LEO

Postby Excaliber » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:01 am

srothstein wrote:I have seen a lot of people who preach to shoot to stop the threat. There is a lot to be said for this, especially in the LEO world. And it is something you might need to consider as a citizen in a self-defense situation.

But here is another point to consider. What is your purpose in this situation? Is it to make an arrest or to just survive? A police officer cannot just run away but a citizen who is not an officer can. The officer must shoot until the threat is teminated and the arrest can be made.

I suggest that you start seriously thinking about a second point for stopping. Instead of just shooting until the threat is stopped, a multiple criteria case could be to shoot until the threat is stopped OR you can leave safely. There truly is a slight difference between these two positions. Consider the case of a single person trying to rob you. You shoot him and he drops to the ground, but still has the gun. He might still be considered a threat. But, it might also be possible for you to run away and make it. Do you need to keep shooting him then?


The point is well taken, but just because the bad guy has been hit and is down does not necessarily mean he is no longer a threat. There have been a number of cases where good guys have been shot by wounded and downed bad guys who retained control of their weapons.

Each situation has to be examined on the basis of its own fact set to evaluate the level of continuing threat when an adversary has been wounded and to determine whether or not additional shots are necessary to end that threat (where the bad guy is in relation to the good guy, type of wound (e.g. head shot vs. arm or leg wound), indications of consciousness, distance, weapon type, available cover, distance to safety, potential new threats from gathering crowds, etc.)

I think the "shoot to stop the threat" rule still applies universally, and down does not necessarily mean out of the fight.
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I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.

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RPBrown
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Re: Commitment to force as a LTC vs. LEO

Postby RPBrown » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:39 am

Excaliber wrote:
srothstein wrote:I have seen a lot of people who preach to shoot to stop the threat. There is a lot to be said for this, especially in the LEO world. And it is something you might need to consider as a citizen in a self-defense situation.

But here is another point to consider. What is your purpose in this situation? Is it to make an arrest or to just survive? A police officer cannot just run away but a citizen who is not an officer can. The officer must shoot until the threat is teminated and the arrest can be made.

I suggest that you start seriously thinking about a second point for stopping. Instead of just shooting until the threat is stopped, a multiple criteria case could be to shoot until the threat is stopped OR you can leave safely. There truly is a slight difference between these two positions. Consider the case of a single person trying to rob you. You shoot him and he drops to the ground, but still has the gun. He might still be considered a threat. But, it might also be possible for you to run away and make it. Do you need to keep shooting him then?


The point is well taken, but just because the bad guy has been hit and is down does not necessarily mean he is no longer a threat. There have been a number of cases where good guys have been shot by wounded and downed bad guys who retained control of their weapons.

Each situation has to be examined on the basis of its own fact set to evaluate the level of continuing threat when an adversary has been wounded and to determine whether or not additional shots are necessary to end that threat (where the bad guy is in relation to the good guy, type of wound (e.g. head shot vs. arm or leg wound), indications of consciousness, distance, weapon type, available cover, distance to safety, potential new threats from gathering crowds, etc.)

I think the "shoot to stop the threat" rule still applies universally, and down does not necessarily mean out of the fight
.


I agree with this. A hypothetical situation in the church shooting. All reports that I have read says the BG had body armor on. What if you were to shoot, hit the body armor, and knock him down? You could possibly still run away but maybe not before he started shooting again. Personally, I don't think I could live with myself if I knocked a BG down and got away while leaving others to perish when he regained composure. So, in this case, I would shoot until the threat is for sure stopped.
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