Would You Tell?

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

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C-dub
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby C-dub » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:50 am

Lynyrd wrote:
C-dub wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:Having your LTC is no secret from any LEO.

Why do you think this?


If they run your DL# it will show them immediately that you have your LTC. Or at least that's what I've been told.

Yes, but only if they have a need to do that. I have not had any LEO "run" my DL in a very long time. The fact that I have a CHL, now LTC, has been a secret from every LEO I've had contact with in the last 15 years except those I had to show it to to get into the Texas State Fair.

The state has even made it difficult for LE to obtain the identification or information of those that have LTCs by not making that available to them unless there is a need. They can't just look it up because they want to and that's the way it should be. So, in that regard, it is a secret from LE.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.

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Mike S
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby Mike S » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:37 am

C-dub wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:
C-dub wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:Having your LTC is no secret from any LEO.

Why do you think this?


If they run your DL# it will show them immediately that you have your LTC. Or at least that's what I've been told.

Yes, but only if they have a need to do that. I have not had any LEO "run" my DL in a very long time. The fact that I have a CHL, now LTC, has been a secret from every LEO I've had contact with in the last 15 years except those I had to show it to to get into the Texas State Fair.

The state has even made it difficult for LE to obtain the identification or information of those that have LTCs by not making that available to them unless there is a need. They can't just look it up because they want to and that's the way it should be. So, in that regard, it is a secret from LE.


Not according to the Govt Code. It's only a secret if they don't ask. Not sure if / how many agencies actually ask, but I have no worries about it as long as it remains not available under the Open Records Act. I don't know lots of LEO's, but the handful I've discussed the topic of LTC with have been very supportive. Even heard the phrase that "When seconds count, we're still minutes away..." from more than one LEO.

ETA: Before anyone comments about agencies compiling lists, I'm understanding the highlighted blue section that if data is requested & provided, then we (the LTC holder) would be notified.

GC §411.178. NOTICE TO LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.
On request of a local law enforcement agency, the department shall notify the agency of the licenses that have been issued to license holders who reside in the county in which the agency is located.
---
Last amended by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 1189, Sec. 14, eff. Sept. 1, 1999

GC §411.192. CONFIDENTIALITY OF RECORDS.
(a) The department shall disclose to a criminal justice agency information contained in its files and records regarding whether a named individual or any individual named in a specified list is licensed under this subchapter. Information on an individual subject to disclosure under this section includes the individual’s name, date of birth, gender, race, zip code, telephone number, e-mail address, and Internet website address. Except as otherwise provided by this section and by Section 411.193, all other records maintained under this subchapter are confidential and are not subject to mandatory disclosure under the open records law, Chapter 552.
(b) An applicant or license holder may be furnished a copy of disclosable records regarding the applicant or license holder on request and the payment of a reasonable fee.
(c) The department shall notify a license holder of any request that is made for information relating to the license holder under this section and provide the name of the agency making the request.
(d) The department shall make public and distribute to the public at no cost lists of individuals who are certified as qualified handgun instructors by the department and who request to be included as provided by Subsection (e). The department shall include on the lists each individual’s name, telephone number, e-mail address, and Internet website address. The department shall make the list available on the department’s Internet website.
(e) An individual who is certified as a qualified handgun instructor may request in writing that the department disclose all or part of the information described by Subsection (d) regarding the individual. The department shall include all or part of the individual’s information on the list as requested.
---
Last amended by Acts 2009, 81st Leg., R.S., Ch. 1146 (H.B. 2730), Sec. 6.03, eff. Sept. 1,
2009.

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Lynyrd
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby Lynyrd » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:43 am

It just doesn't bother me one way or another if LEO knows about my LTC. That's part of the bargain when you apply for this license. And I agree that of all the LEO's I have talked to about it they are very supportive. After all, LTC holders have passed an extensive background check and they immediately know we are not part of any of the groups they have to look out for.
Do what you say you're gonna do.

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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby Charles L. Cotton » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:17 am

As Mike S noted, Tex. Gov't Code §411.178 allows the Police Chief to request a list of every LTC in his county. If he wanted this information for harassment purposes, he could have had it since 1995.

I wouldn't object to providing the information and my photograph. I really like the idea of not getting shot by a LEO. However, I too don't think it is likely to work because responding officers aren't going to have the time to look at and memorize photos. I would be happy that the Chief wants to help with training and taking steps to prevent an innocent person not being shot due to mistaken identity.

Chas.
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby OlBill » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:25 am

During a crisis you don't shoot faces, you shoot hands

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Jusme
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby Jusme » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:09 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:As Mike S noted, Tex. Gov't Code §411.178 allows the Police Chief to request a list of every LTC in his county. If he wanted this information for harassment purposes, he could have had it since 1995.

I wouldn't object to providing the information and my photograph. I really like the idea of not getting shot by a LEO. However, I too don't think it is likely to work because responding officers aren't going to have the time to look at and memorize photos. I would be happy that the Chief wants to help with training and taking steps to prevent an innocent person not being shot due to mistaken identity.

Chas.


:iagree:

If officers are dispatched to an active shooter call, at a church, or any where else, they will not have time to stop and pick up a stack of photos. While I would have no issue with my local police chief knowing I had an LTC, and if he was providing training, he would probably know that anyway, having a photo of me or others who carry, would not prevent an officer in a stressful situation from mistakenly shooting a good guy, with a gun. That's why, if the bad guy has been incapacitated, or restrained,the good guys, should re holster. Standing over a bad guy with a gun pointed at him, is a very difficult situation to assess, for officers, who are first on the scene.
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

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Jusme
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby Jusme » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:20 pm

OlBill wrote:During a crisis you don't shoot faces, you shoot hands



I shoot center mass. Maybe pictures of LTC holders from the neck to the waist, would be more beneficial!! :smilelol5:
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

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bigtek
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby bigtek » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:34 pm

Will the police chief provide a list of all the local LEO and pictures to the church security team? In the aftermath of an active shooter, I would hate to see non church members with rifles come through the church door and get shot because the church security team didn't know they were law enforcement.
Give peace a chance.

I'll cover you in case it doesn't work out.

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C-dub
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby C-dub » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:15 pm

Mike S wrote:
C-dub wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:
C-dub wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:Having your LTC is no secret from any LEO.

Why do you think this?


If they run your DL# it will show them immediately that you have your LTC. Or at least that's what I've been told.

Yes, but only if they have a need to do that. I have not had any LEO "run" my DL in a very long time. The fact that I have a CHL, now LTC, has been a secret from every LEO I've had contact with in the last 15 years except those I had to show it to to get into the Texas State Fair.

The state has even made it difficult for LE to obtain the identification or information of those that have LTCs by not making that available to them unless there is a need. They can't just look it up because they want to and that's the way it should be. So, in that regard, it is a secret from LE.


Not according to the Govt Code. It's only a secret if they don't ask. Not sure if / how many agencies actually ask, but I have no worries about it as long as it remains not available under the Open Records Act. I don't know lots of LEO's, but the handful I've discussed the topic of LTC with have been very supportive. Even heard the phrase that "When seconds count, we're still minutes away..." from more than one LEO.

Mike S, thank you for that reminder. It seems like I was confusing the closure of the open records request thing and thinking that LE also had to have a warrant or something to get this information when not part of some other type of legal request.

Lynyrd, you have my sincere apologies for doubting you. It is clear that I was confused on the issue.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.

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OlBill
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby OlBill » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:22 pm

Jusme wrote:
OlBill wrote:During a crisis you don't shoot faces, you shoot hands



I shoot center mass. Maybe pictures of LTC holders from the neck to the waist, would be more beneficial!! :smilelol5:

Indeed. You know what I mean, right?


apostate
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby apostate » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:19 pm

Has anybody here ever been notified pursuant to GC §411.192(c) in blue above? I certainly haven't. Does that mean DPS has never revealed my LTC status to any other agency, or does it mean DPS breaks the law? :headscratch
I'm too old for this...

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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby Oldgringo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:28 pm

I must be missing several things in my dotage? Among them are "the secret CHL" concept. "Concealed" is not synonymous with "secret".

I don't care who knows if I'm licensed; in fact, I think everyone should know that I'm licensed to carry and thinks that I probably have a gun hidden on me and may use it if/when the occasion rises. BTW, I do not OC.


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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby treadlightly » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:17 pm

Oldgringo wrote:I must be missing several things in my dotage? Among them are "the secret CHL" concept. "Concealed" is not synonymous with "secret".


Just what I was thinking! I carry concealed for a number of reasons, although I am firm that the right to open carry is good.

It’s concealed and not a general topic of conversation. It’s not a secret to many folks, including law enforcement.


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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby kw5kw » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:32 pm

Lynyrd wrote:
C-dub wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:Having your LTC is no secret from any LEO.

Why do you think this?


If they run your DL# it will show them immediately that you have your LTC. Or at least that's what I've been told.

This is true, every time a LEO runs your DL your LTC information/ status is also returned.
Russ
kw5kw

Retired DPS Communications Operator PCO III January 2014.

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Nutcracker
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby Nutcracker » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:27 pm

kw5kw wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:
C-dub wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:Having your LTC is no secret from any LEO.

Why do you think this?


If they run your DL# it will show them immediately that you have your LTC. Or at least that's what I've been told.

This is true, every time a LEO runs your DL your LTC information/ status is also returned.

That may be a good reason to get a license from a reciprocal state if you like your privacy. It doesn't sound like DPS is following the law by notifying Texas LTC to whom they disclosed their license status. It doesn't sound like they're teaching the law regarding 30.06 notice, much less 30.07 notice requirements. How can Texans trust DPS when we know they willfully ignore the law with impunity?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


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