Would You Tell?

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

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C-dub
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby C-dub » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:43 pm

Nutcracker wrote:
kw5kw wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:
C-dub wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:Having your LTC is no secret from any LEO.

Why do you think this?


If they run your DL# it will show them immediately that you have your LTC. Or at least that's what I've been told.

This is true, every time a LEO runs your DL your LTC information/ status is also returned.

That may be a good reason to get a license from a reciprocal state if you like your privacy. It doesn't sound like DPS is following the law by notifying Texas LTC to whom they disclosed their license status. It doesn't sound like they're teaching the law regarding 30.06 notice, much less 30.07 notice requirements. How can Texans trust DPS when we know they willfully ignore the law with impunity?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

If you're stopped and they're running your DL and you haven't shown them your LTC by now, when they discover it you'll be notified pretty quickly. You won't have to wait for the mail either.
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Nutcracker
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby Nutcracker » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:49 pm

C-dub wrote:
Nutcracker wrote:That may be a good reason to get a license from a reciprocal state if you like your privacy. It doesn't sound like DPS is following the law by notifying Texas LTC to whom they disclosed their license status. It doesn't sound like they're teaching the law regarding 30.06 notice, much less 30.07 notice requirements. How can Texans trust DPS when we know they willfully ignore the law with impunity?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

If you're stopped and they're running your DL and you haven't shown them your LTC by now, when they discover it you'll be notified pretty quickly. You won't have to wait for the mail either.

If you don't have a Texas LTC there's nothing to find when they run your Texas DL. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.

There's also nothing for CLEO like Manley and Acevedo to find if they go fishing for the licensees in their city.


roadkill
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby roadkill » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:02 pm

Nutcracker wrote:
C-dub wrote:
Nutcracker wrote:That may be a good reason to get a license from a reciprocal state if you like your privacy. It doesn't sound like DPS is following the law by notifying Texas LTC to whom they disclosed their license status. It doesn't sound like they're teaching the law regarding 30.06 notice, much less 30.07 notice requirements. How can Texans trust DPS when we know they willfully ignore the law with impunity?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

If you're stopped and they're running your DL and you haven't shown them your LTC by now, when they discover it you'll be notified pretty quickly. You won't have to wait for the mail either.

If you don't have a Texas LTC there's nothing to find when they run your Texas DL. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.

There's also nothing for CLEO like Manley and Acevedo to find if they go fishing for the licensees in their city.


Can they even request a list of such? AFAIK TXDPS won’t disclose a list but not sure if that also applies to a LE agency.

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Nutcracker
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby Nutcracker » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:02 pm

thatguyoverthere wrote:I do think the chief's intentions are good and honorable. And obviously he thinks this is a good idea. But, me - not so much. I don't really think that having a fistful of photos would be too useful to him if it actually came down to crunch time.

But the main problem for me is, I'm just not really wild about giving my name and photo and LTC info to anybody that I don't have to, even if it is for a good cause. Not that I have anything to hide, but still....

:iagree:

If the chief is going to train the team he will know who is on the team. I have no problem with that, but I don't see anything good from there being a book of names and pictures. I would decline to join the security team if there's going to be mug shots. :lol:


srothstein
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby srothstein » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:04 pm

roadkill wrote:
Nutcracker wrote:
C-dub wrote:
Nutcracker wrote:That may be a good reason to get a license from a reciprocal state if you like your privacy. It doesn't sound like DPS is following the law by notifying Texas LTC to whom they disclosed their license status. It doesn't sound like they're teaching the law regarding 30.06 notice, much less 30.07 notice requirements. How can Texans trust DPS when we know they willfully ignore the law with impunity?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

If you're stopped and they're running your DL and you haven't shown them your LTC by now, when they discover it you'll be notified pretty quickly. You won't have to wait for the mail either.

If you don't have a Texas LTC there's nothing to find when they run your Texas DL. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.

There's also nothing for CLEO like Manley and Acevedo to find if they go fishing for the licensees in their city.


Can they even request a list of such? AFAIK TXDPS won’t disclose a list but not sure if that also applies to a LE agency.


Yes, the law (Government Code section 411.178) requires DPS to provide a list of licensees living in their jurisdiction if a CLEO requests the list.
Steve Rothstein


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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby srothstein » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:10 pm

C-dub wrote:
Nutcracker wrote:
kw5kw wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:
C-dub wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:Having your LTC is no secret from any LEO.

Why do you think this?


If they run your DL# it will show them immediately that you have your LTC. Or at least that's what I've been told.

This is true, every time a LEO runs your DL your LTC information/ status is also returned.

That may be a good reason to get a license from a reciprocal state if you like your privacy. It doesn't sound like DPS is following the law by notifying Texas LTC to whom they disclosed their license status. It doesn't sound like they're teaching the law regarding 30.06 notice, much less 30.07 notice requirements. How can Texans trust DPS when we know they willfully ignore the law with impunity?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

If you're stopped and they're running your DL and you haven't shown them your LTC by now, when they discover it you'll be notified pretty quickly. You won't have to wait for the mail either.


You are, of course, correct, but Nutcracker is also correct. Paragraph (a) of section 411.192 of the Government Code allows DPS to tell an officer who runs your DL about your LTC. Paragraph (c) of the same section requires DPS to notify you each time they tell an officer about that. They have no way of knowing if the officer cared, told you that DPS told them, or that you had already told the officer. Their system should automatically generate a postcard or letter to notify you that an officer from whatever department it was (they know by the ORI on the TLETS message) was informed of your LTC status.

I don't know if any LTC would really care or not expect the officer to be told, but the law does requrie DPS to notify you of this and they are not, to my knowledge, doing so. DPS should obey the law.
Steve Rothstein

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smokejensen
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby smokejensen » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:42 pm

thatguyoverthere wrote:As most of us know, with the recent change in Texas law and with recent events in Texas, many churches (especially smaller ones) are getting more active in trying to provide some kind of volunteer security force.

The small church that I attend is no different. We do already have something currently in place that I am involved with now, but we're going to be getting it more formalized and more "official." The plan is still in the talking stages right now, so nothing finalized, yet.

Our pastor is getting our small town police chief involved, by having him look over our campus and helping to point out possible security weaknesses, and to get him to suggest ideas for improvement. The chief has also volunteered to come up with a basic training program to offer to our church members who volunteer for this effort. Sounds great so far.

But here's part of the rub for me. Since both the pastor and the police chief know that at least part of the volunteer security team will consist of LTC armed personnel, the chief has asked the pastor to put together a list of names and photos of the LTC carriers in the church and forward that to him (to the chief). The reasoning is that if something were to actually happen and require an emergency police response, the chief wants to have photos to help him recognize who the good guys are.

I do think the chief's intentions are good and honorable. And obviously he thinks this is a good idea. But, me - not so much. I don't really think that having a fistful of photos would be too useful to him if it actually came down to crunch time.

But the main problem for me is, I'm just not really wild about giving my name and photo and LTC info to anybody that I don't have to, even if it is for a good cause. Not that I have anything to hide, but still....

Now, remember this is a small town, small church and small police force. It's sort of an "open secret" who does and does not carry in our church anyway. So even if I were to go along with this, it's not like I'm giving up any Top Secret information!

So what do y'all think? Would you put the brakes on this and bow out gracefully, or would giving your name and photo identifying yourself as an LTC carrier to a local small town LEO (who probably already knows anyway) be no big deal to you?


I have a better idea. Get your pastor to ask the Chief and his officers to to attend the church and meet the security team personally. In addition, have the officers bring their photos and certifications to hang on the church wall so the parishioners will know who the "good guys" are.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
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1911 Raptor
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby 1911 Raptor » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:00 pm

The other problem is that more than likely there will be LTC’s in the church who will not be on the security team. How will the police chief identify those as good guys? Because of this I find his logic for requesting photos is flawed. It would seem anyone not on the security team not identified would be treated as a hostile.


Bushwhacker
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby Bushwhacker » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:03 pm

Maybe the church could issue a security team sash to identify the good guys.

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smokejensen
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby smokejensen » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:34 pm

Bushwhacker wrote:Maybe the church could issue a security team sash to identify the good guys.


Lol. With LTC badges pinned to them.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
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CleverNickname
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby CleverNickname » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:26 pm

1911 Raptor wrote:The other problem is that more than likely there will be LTC’s in the church who will not be on the security team. How will the police chief identify those as good guys? Because of this I find his logic for requesting photos is flawed. It would seem anyone not on the security team not identified would be treated as a hostile.

You're looking at it wrong. It's just a CYA move by the chief to look better to the general public, if an incident did occur. Whether it would actually do anything is secondary, if anything.

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Nutcracker
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Re: Would You Tell?

Postby Nutcracker » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:42 pm

srothstein wrote:
C-dub wrote:
Nutcracker wrote:
kw5kw wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:
C-dub wrote:
Lynyrd wrote:Having your LTC is no secret from any LEO.

Why do you think this?


If they run your DL# it will show them immediately that you have your LTC. Or at least that's what I've been told.

This is true, every time a LEO runs your DL your LTC information/ status is also returned.

That may be a good reason to get a license from a reciprocal state if you like your privacy. It doesn't sound like DPS is following the law by notifying Texas LTC to whom they disclosed their license status. It doesn't sound like they're teaching the law regarding 30.06 notice, much less 30.07 notice requirements. How can Texans trust DPS when we know they willfully ignore the law with impunity?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

If you're stopped and they're running your DL and you haven't shown them your LTC by now, when they discover it you'll be notified pretty quickly. You won't have to wait for the mail either.


You are, of course, correct, but Nutcracker is also correct. Paragraph (a) of section 411.192 of the Government Code allows DPS to tell an officer who runs your DL about your LTC. Paragraph (c) of the same section requires DPS to notify you each time they tell an officer about that. They have no way of knowing if the officer cared, told you that DPS told them, or that you had already told the officer. Their system should automatically generate a postcard or letter to notify you that an officer from whatever department it was (they know by the ORI on the TLETS message) was informed of your LTC status.

I don't know if any LTC would really care or not expect the officer to be told, but the law does requrie DPS to notify you of this and they are not, to my knowledge, doing so. DPS should obey the law.

:iagree: I applied for an Arizona license so I don't help Texas DPS break the law. :evil2:


Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


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