"Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

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WTR
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby WTR » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:34 pm

:thewave
mojo84 wrote:Which caliber is best for self-defense?




JK :lol:



We all know caliber is irrelevant. It's shot placement .

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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby Liberty » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:01 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
I used to post on a poker strategy discussion board. They had a short list of banned topics that would be immediately closed by the moderators because they either had been hashed to death already or they were just a matter of personal opinion and / or likely to start a pointless fight. Topics included when to fold pocket aces pre-flop, and the appropriate amount to tip when you win a pot.

I would humbly suggest that we do the same here for posts about whether you should or should not open carry....


Some of the topics may be old for those of us who have been around for a while. Yet I think these discussions can be advantageous to newbies, and to those of of us who have adapted to these times. Most of us at one time were pretty much opposed to open carry as a strategy, Looked down on Mouse guns, and believed that the 1911 was the ultimate handgun.

Every once in while I think that discussions regarding Open vs Concealed, Caliber, and platform comparison are a worthy topic. A thread can get old real fast when it strays from fact and logic to opinion supported by emotion.


Does anyone know where I can buy a striker fired .380 1911 platform heater?
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby bigtek » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:14 pm

diverman26 wrote:According to my instructor (an active & senior local LEO) - while the state has specifically stated what makes a legal notification in the form of a 30.06 and 30.07 sign, any notification that is reasonable (No Weapons Allowed, Gun Buster, etc) would also serve as notification and if called, HE would make an arrest for unlawful carry. Since we were in a class and I didn't have the knowledge that I have picked up in just the last 30 days I didn't challenge him.

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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby LDB415 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:53 pm

Is it legal? Absolutely.

Is it legally binding? I don't think so.

That's the distinction that has to be applied. As for me, I would ignore it and presume my concealing was fully effective just as it always has been so nobody would be the wiser.
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby treadlightly » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:15 pm

It would be cool if your instructor could pop in here. Tell him it's not Reddit, it's run by an NRA Board member. It won't be anyone here calling him out for being wrong, anyway, it would be the State legislature, as represented by the laws they wrote. :mrgreen:

If I'm surprised by an unenforceable gunbusters sign, what I do would depend on the circumstances. At my discretion I might (concealed) carry past them. I would avoid the place in the future.

My favorite gunbuster sign is in the Freddy's burger joint in Waco. It says something like, "For the comfort of all our customers, we respectfully ask that you not openly carry firearms in Freddy's."

No problem, that's all right in my book. Better to allow open carry, but I'm OK with their compromise.

Federal buildings and genuinely off limits places I don't carry.

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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby Flightmare » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:23 pm

treadlightly wrote:My favorite gunbuster sign is in the Freddy's burger joint in Waco. It says something like, "For the comfort of all our customers, we respectfully ask that you not openly carry firearms in Freddy's."


I saw a similar sign outside of a Taco Cabana recently.
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby Mike S » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:53 pm

JustSomeOldGuy wrote:I'm splitting hairs here, but
1) if I have an LTC, and
2) there is no valid 06/07 up that tells me the "no guns" sentiment applies to LTC's as well as the common horde
then IF they somehow figure out I'm carrying and ask me to leave and I DON'T, wouldn't I be arrested under 30.05 rather than .06/.07/UCW?


If you're asked to leave and DON'T (in your example I assume CC for a person with an LTC), then I think .06 would be the appropriate charge (a Class A Misdemeanor since oral notice was given & refused to leave, even if no .06 signage, no gun buster, etc);

.07 would be for OC using the same example, with or without .07 signage but having received oral notice to depart & refusing;

.05 would be more appropriate for someone who doesn't have a firearm on them, but refused to leave when asked.

UCW (what it sounds like the OP's instructor said he would incorrectly arrest under) would be for anyone carrying in public WITHOUT an LTC, regardless of signage anyway because the act of carrying a handgun in public WITHOUT a LTC doesn't require notice to be unlawful (of course with the exceptions of the MPA, private property, property under your control, etc).

Since the Legislature was clear in defining what constitutes 'notice', & a gun buster sign doesn't, then oral notice would have to be given & the LTC holder refused to leave prior to an offense being committed.
Last edited by Mike S on Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:41 am, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby WTR » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:50 pm

Bottom line, if you have your LTC, the signs are invalid. Carry concealed and no one would be the wiser. They would have no reason to ask you to leave.

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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby Oldgringo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:07 pm

diverman26 wrote:Disclaimer: I have read just about every post on this topic and I am aware that it has been discussed to death, so I am sorry to bring it up again.

I am a very recent LTC Texan and the topic of prohibited locations was brought up in the class.
According to my instructor (an active & senior local LEO) - while the state has specifically stated what makes a legal notification in the form of a 30.06 and 30.07 sign, any notification that is reasonable (No Weapons Allowed, Gun Buster, etc) would also serve as notification and if called, HE would make an arrest for unlawful carry. Since we were in a class and I didn't have the knowledge that I have picked up in just the last 30 days I didn't challenge him.

I don't want to reignite the debate on this but I do have a couple of questions:

1. Is there case law yet which has tested this?

2. How would you approach the subject with the Instructor/LEO? I will likely see him again and would like to discuss this topic in more detail.


Name names and the location of faulty instruction.


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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby longtooth » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:08 pm

diverman26 wrote:Disclaimer: I have read just about every post on this topic and I am aware that it has been discussed to death, so I am sorry to bring it up again.

I am a very recent LTC Texan and the topic of prohibited locations was brought up in the class.
According to my instructor (an active & senior local LEO) - while the state has specifically stated what makes a legal notification in the form of a 30.06 and 30.07 sign, any notification that is reasonable (No Weapons Allowed, Gun Buster, etc) would also serve as notification and if called, HE would make an arrest for unlawful carry. Since we were in a class and I didn't have the knowledge that I have picked up in just the last 30 days I didn't challenge him.

I don't want to reignite the debate on this but I do have a couple of questions:

1. Is there case law yet which has tested this?

2. How would you approach the subject with the Instructor/LEO? I will likely see him again and would like to discuss this topic in more detail.


1. I am a retired instructor. He is wrong. No case law that I know of. I don't want to be the test case.
2. He has a badge and a gun. Recommend a different Instructor to your friends. He has made up his mind.
3. My own opinion. YMMV.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby The Annoyed Man » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:44 am

Your instructor is an idiot on a power trip. As Charles pointed out, the flip side of “you can beat the rap, but not the ride” is “I broke no laws, you KNEW I broke no laws when you put me in cuffs and took me downtown. Now I’m going to own your house and car.”

I don’t care how senior he is, I hope he is not involved in the training of new officers.
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby The Annoyed Man » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:50 am

Mike S wrote:
JustSomeOldGuy wrote:I'm splitting hairs here, but
1) if I have an LTC, and
2) there is no valid 06/07 up that tells me the "no guns" sentiment applies to LTC's as well as the common horde
then IF they somehow figure out I'm carrying and ask me to leave and I DON'T, wouldn't I be arrested under 30.05 rather than .06/.07/UCW?


If you're asked to leave and DON'T (in your example I assume CC for a person with an LTC), then I think .06 would be the appropriate charge (a Class A Misdemeanor since oral notice was given & refused to leave, even if no .06 signage, no gun buster, etc);

.07 would be for OC using the same example, with or without .07 signage but having received oral notice to depart & refusing;

.05 would be more appropriate for someone who doesn't have a firearm on them, but refused to leave when asked.

UCW (what it sounds like the OP's instructor said he would arrest under) would be for anyone carrying in public WITHOUT an LTC, regardless of signage anyway (of course with the exceptions of the MPA, private property, property under your control, etc)

Except that the OP’s example stated that his instructor, acting in his capacity as LEO, would make an arrest if called by the proprietor of an establishement posted with a gun buster sign. He did NOT include whether or not the proprietor had given the customer notice.....only that the proprietor called the cops. In that event, on its own, the gun buster sign does NOT constitute proper notice in any way shape or form. Now, I do OC from time to time, but this is also a good case for CC. What the proprietor can’t see, he can’t get his feathers ruffled over. It is incumbent on the proprietor - by law - to post the proper signage if he wants to bar someone from carrying into his establishment. It’s not MY fault if he’s too ignorant to do that. And if I’m CC’ing, how’s he even going to know?
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby Flightmare » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:22 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:Your instructor is an idiot on a power trip. As Charles pointed out, the flip side of “you can beat the rap, but not the ride” is “I broke no laws, you KNEW I broke no laws when you put me in cuffs and took me downtown. Now I’m going to own your house and car.”

I don’t care how senior he is, I hope he is not involved in the training of new officers.


Reminds me of the officer in Utah who arrested the nurse. If I recall, that did not work out in favor of the officer.
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby Mike S » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:30 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Mike S wrote:
JustSomeOldGuy wrote:I'm splitting hairs here, but
1) if I have an LTC, and
2) there is no valid 06/07 up that tells me the "no guns" sentiment applies to LTC's as well as the common horde
then IF they somehow figure out I'm carrying and ask me to leave and I DON'T, wouldn't I be arrested under 30.05 rather than .06/.07/UCW?


If you're asked to leave and DON'T (in your example I assume CC for a person with an LTC), then I think .06 would be the appropriate charge (a Class A Misdemeanor since oral notice was given & refused to leave, even if no .06 signage, no gun buster, etc);

.07 would be for OC using the same example, with or without .07 signage but having received oral notice to depart & refusing;

.05 would be more appropriate for someone who doesn't have a firearm on them, but refused to leave when asked.

UCW (what it sounds like the OP's instructor said he would arrest under) would be for anyone carrying in public WITHOUT an LTC, regardless of signage anyway (of course with the exceptions of the MPA, private property, property under your control, etc)

Except that the OP’s example stated that his instructor, acting in his capacity as LEO, would make an arrest if called by the proprietor of an establishement posted with a gun buster sign. He did NOT include whether or not the proprietor had given the customer notice.....only that the proprietor called the cops. In that event, on its own, the gun buster sign does NOT constitute proper notice in any way shape or form. Now, I do OC from time to time, but this is also a good case for CC. What the proprietor can’t see, he can’t get his feathers ruffled over. It is incumbent on the proprietor - by law - to post the proper signage if he wants to bar someone from carrying into his establishment. It’s not MY fault if he’s too ignorant to do that. And if I’m CC’ing, how’s he even going to know?


100% :iagree:

I was replying to JustSomeOldGuy's question about the appropriateness of 30.05. I've edited mine to clarify that the UCW charge that the OP's instructor referenced would likely be inappropriate.


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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby NNT » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:32 am

Other topics I have seen mis-represented in class:
Airports are off limits completely
Parking lots of schools are off limits
you should not carry in govt buildings
who in a car can have a weapon if not an LTC (from my understanding it is only the driver who is in control of the vehicle)


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