"Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

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thetexan
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby thetexan » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:27 am

Gun buster signs have zero legal force. They mean nothing to you as an LTC. Nothing. Except to inform you that the owner apparently doesn't want guns in his establishment. Wonderful. That owner is BOUND...

Let me repeat... That owner is BOUND...

I don't think you heard me...that owner is BOUND legally, ethically, statutorily, and any other way you can think of...

B O U N D.....

To notify you of his exercising his sovereign right to prohibit you from entering his property with a gun by following the procedures established by state law to do so...namely 30.06 and 30.07.

I am not interested in his DESIRE to not have guns on his property any more than he is interested in my DESIRE to carry a gun on his property. What we both have in common is a set of statutes that specify where and when I may carry and the same group of statutes that specify where and when the owner may prohibit me from carrying.

Yes there is case law. Not only in this specific area but also in trespass 30.05 situations and in other non-related non weapon cases where wording of a notice is specific and a required element of the statute.

Remember, the owner and LTC are BOUND by the same rules. The owner doesn't get a pass just because he thinks a gun buster sign is cool.

Note: This has nothing to do with whether you are arrested and take the ride. If you are legal you will prevail. Show me a LEO who arrests you because you carried past a gun buster sign and I will show you a LEO who does not know his statutes. But you may still take the ride.

Know the statutes and the law and carry with confidence.

One last note. Do not take this as encouragement to have an "in your face", self-righteous, belligerent attitude. Always try to be gracious and understanding. But don't let that deprive you of your rights.

Tex
Texas LTC Instructor, NRA Pistol Instructor, CFI, CFII, MEI Instructor Pilot


Mike S
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby Mike S » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:46 am

thetexan wrote:Gun buster signs have zero legal force. They mean nothing to you as an LTC. Nothing. Except to inform you that the owner apparently doesn't want guns in his establishment. Wonderful. That owner is BOUND...

Let me repeat... That owner is BOUND...

I don't think you heard me...that owner is BOUND legally, ethically, statutorily, and any other way you can think of...

B O U N D.....

To notify you of his exercising his sovereign right to prohibit you from entering his property with a gun by following the procedures established by state law to do so...namely 30.06 and 30.07.

I am not interested in his DESIRE to not have guns on his property any more than he is interested in my DESIRE to carry a gun on his property. What we both have in common is a set of statutes that specify where and when I may carry and the same group of statutes that specify where and when the owner may prohibit me from carrying.

Yes there is case law. Not only in this specific area but also in trespass 30.05 situations and in other non-related non weapon cases where wording of a notice is specific and a required element of the statute.

Remember, the owner and LTC are BOUND by the same rules. The owner doesn't get a pass just because he thinks a gun buster sign is cool.

Note: This has nothing to do with whether you are arrested and take the ride. If you are legal you will prevail. Show me a LEO who arrests you because you carried past a gun buster sign and I will show you a LEO who does not know his statutes. But you may still take the ride.

Know the statutes and the law and carry with confidence.

One last note. Do not take this as encouragement to have an "in your face", self-righteous, belligerent attitude. Always try to be gracious and understanding. But don't let that deprive you of your rights.

Tex


Please post the relevant case law regarding .06/.07, as well as for .05 as it relates to licensed/unlicensed carry of a firearm. That would be the first time I've seen it, & I would like to add those to my reference materials. It would also provide better debunking material for those who say there's case law to support the counter view, such as the OPs Instructor.
Mike S.


Soccerdad1995
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:14 pm

Abraham wrote:So 'intent' equals the force of law?

Who knew..?

P.S, I'm still walking past gun buster signs.


Apparently so. So in the handful of cases where LEO's have been told they were not welcome at XYZ establishment, I suppose those LEO's should have been arrested for trespass if they didn't leave immediately, and instead asked for a manager, etc.? This whole thing is complete and total bull and is the type of thing that calls into question whether we should have any required "training" at all.
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bigtek
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby bigtek » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:20 pm

I recommend people read this forum to learn the law and then get a license from another state because Texas DPS either doesn't know the law or they intentionally break the law. Either way, it's best to avoid their fudge cluster.
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jmorris
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby jmorris » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:31 pm

bigtek wrote:I recommend people read this forum to learn the law and then get a license from another state because Texas DPS either doesn't know the law or they intentionally break the law. Either way, it's best to avoid their fudge cluster.


Ok, I'll bite. How does having a license from another state solve the problem? You still have to follow Texas laws in Texas.
Jay E Morris
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Cibolo, TX

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bigtek
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby bigtek » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:36 pm

How does it help to throw more money at a broken system? I'm not a Democrat. :biggrinjester:
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CleverNickname
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby CleverNickname » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:39 pm

thetexan wrote:Gun buster signs have zero legal force. They mean nothing to you as an LTC. Nothing. Except to inform you that the owner apparently doesn't want guns in his establishment.


Not necessarily. Let's say you see this sign posted somewhere:

Image

Does it mean:
1. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like guns."
2. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like guns, and we don't want anyone carrying them here."
3. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like Beretta 92's."
4. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like semi-auto pistols."
5. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like semi-auto pistols if they're not carried cocked & locked."

An argument could be made for any of those. Anything other than a legit 30.06 or 30.07 sign is ambiguous at best.


cedarparkdad987
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby cedarparkdad987 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:04 pm

Legality aside I would take the sign at its word that they do not want my money, and would stay away. Additionally, I have no desire to be a test case.


thetexan
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby thetexan » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:22 pm

CleverNickname wrote:
thetexan wrote:Gun buster signs have zero legal force. They mean nothing to you as an LTC. Nothing. Except to inform you that the owner apparently doesn't want guns in his establishment.


Not necessarily. Let's say you see this sign posted somewhere:

Image

Does it mean:
1. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like guns."
2. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like guns, and we don't want anyone carrying them here."
3. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like Beretta 92's."
4. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like semi-auto pistols."
5. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like semi-auto pistols if they're not carried cocked & locked."

An argument could be made for any of those. Anything other than a legit 30.06 or 30.07 sign is ambiguous at best.



And possibly 20 other things...

What it DOES NOT mean is that I am prohibited from exercising my right to LTC carry a gun on the premises.

tex
Texas LTC Instructor, NRA Pistol Instructor, CFI, CFII, MEI Instructor Pilot


Soccerdad1995
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:01 pm

CleverNickname wrote:
thetexan wrote:Gun buster signs have zero legal force. They mean nothing to you as an LTC. Nothing. Except to inform you that the owner apparently doesn't want guns in his establishment.


Not necessarily. Let's say you see this sign posted somewhere:

Image

Does it mean:
1. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like guns."
2. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like guns, and we don't want anyone carrying them here."
3. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like Beretta 92's."
4. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like semi-auto pistols."
5. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like semi-auto pistols if they're not carried cocked & locked."

An argument could be made for any of those. Anything other than a legit 30.06 or 30.07 sign is ambiguous at best.


It means that they have no Beretta's for sale at the moment. Maybe they just ran out?
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bigtek
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby bigtek » Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:11 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
CleverNickname wrote:
thetexan wrote:Gun buster signs have zero legal force. They mean nothing to you as an LTC. Nothing. Except to inform you that the owner apparently doesn't want guns in his establishment.


Not necessarily. Let's say you see this sign posted somewhere:

Image

Does it mean:
1. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like guns."
2. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like guns, and we don't want anyone carrying them here."
3. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like Beretta 92's."
4. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like semi-auto pistols."
5. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like semi-auto pistols if they're not carried cocked & locked."

An argument could be made for any of those. Anything other than a legit 30.06 or 30.07 sign is ambiguous at best.


It means that they have no Beretta's for sale at the moment. Maybe they just ran out?

Are you sure? It looks more like a Taurus PT 92 to me.
Give peace a chance.

I'll cover you in case it doesn't work out.


treadlightly
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby treadlightly » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 am

CleverNickname wrote:
thetexan wrote:Gun buster signs have zero legal force. They mean nothing to you as an LTC. Nothing. Except to inform you that the owner apparently doesn't want guns in his establishment.


Not necessarily. Let's say you see this sign posted somewhere:

Image

Does it mean:
1. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like guns."
2. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like guns, and we don't want anyone carrying them here."
3. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like Beretta 92's."
4. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like semi-auto pistols."
5. "The owner/management of this properly doesn't like semi-auto pistols if they're not carried cocked & locked."

An argument could be made for any of those. Anything other than a legit 30.06 or 30.07 sign is ambiguous at best.


There's only a pistol under the slash. I don't see a pistol and a license card. Obviously it means no unlicensed carry.

Seriously, there are businesses who post deliberately noncompliant signs because they aren't anti gun, they just don't want to scare off customers with unhealthy phobias about inert mechanical devices. The best examples are the friendly "you're cool but please don't open carry" signs.

Cabela's in Waco used to have a gun check bench at the entrance. There was a sign at the entrance indicating defensive carry firearms didn't need to be checked.

The range of property owner's wishes is too great to be trusted to mind reading. A hoplophobe who refuses to post workable, enforceable signs is (according to his philosophy, not mine) failing to protect his precious sheeply patrons. He should consider himself irresponsible with guns.

I would not expect to be ticketed for failing to come to a full stop at a sign shaped like a unicorn with the wording "Here abide your turn." A standard octagon and the word "Stop" works so much better.

If you don't want my icon of freedom on your property, post 30.06 and 30.07. Problem solved. If it means that much to you, do the right thing and post clearly enforceable signage. Otherwise, be content with some of your most honest customers, ones that wouldn't think of shoplifting, wandering your aisles with certain concealed artifacts.

Frankly, I suspect that one motivation behind the anti-sign movement is entrapment. I bet there are anti-gun people out there who don't just want me off their property, they want me to suffer for my knuckle-dragging ways. The idea of not putting up a standard sign may be intriguing to some people, an expression of hope they can some day trip up a gun carrier.

If they are that venomous in their view of gun rights, they may be cruel in other ways. Avoid them.


TreyHouston
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby TreyHouston » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:49 am

I learned in class a year and a half ago that the gun buster sign applies to UNLICENSED carry. That is what I will continue to follow. AND HB 435! :thumbs2:
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kw5kw
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby kw5kw » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:42 am

:iagree:
TreyHouston wrote:I learned in class a year and a half ago that the gun buster sign applies to UNLICENSED carry. That is what I will continue to follow. AND HB 435! :thumbs2:
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twomillenium
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Re: "Gun-Buster" Sign Legal?

Postby twomillenium » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:42 pm

kw5kw wrote::iagree:
TreyHouston wrote:I learned in class a year and a half ago that the gun buster sign applies to UNLICENSED carry. That is what I will continue to follow. AND HB 435! :thumbs2:

It is reminding unlicensed carry that they already should not be carrying in that establishment.
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