New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

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Soccerdad1995
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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:25 pm

flowrie wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:It looks like Houston PD got this right in the end. He was a registered guest in the hotel, so 30.06 / 30.07 would not apply to the handguns he had in his room, and would obviously never apply to the AR. Plus it doesn't look like he was actually carrying any guns while he was intoxicated.
.


I believe he broke the law when he entered the hotel with the handgun, so 30.60 / 30.07 does apply to the handgun in the room. The handgun did not enter the hotel on its own, he carried it in.


Just to play devil's advocate, we don't know how the handgun got into the hotel room. It is entirely possible that he had the gun in a locked box inside of his suitcase and the bell hops transported that suitcase from his truck to his room. After all, this is a fairly nice hotel in an area where one is likely to use valet parking due to a lack of street parking available.
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philip964
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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby philip964 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:13 pm

https://www.click2houston.com/news/man- ... appearance

Has a pick up truck, looks pretty new.

Likes to grill outside.

At hotel to drink and celebrate new year.

Army veteran.

Didn't want to leave guns in truck where they would be stolen.

Hotel asked him to leave and he wouldn't.

Struggled with officer sent to evict him.

Guns found during search of room.

Became front page national news.


srothstein
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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby srothstein » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:51 pm

I think we may need to pay very close attention to this case. It may have a side effect we do not like.

The man had rented a room from the hotel and was asked to leave. The police arrested him and did charge him with criminal trespass for refusing to leave. Think about this for a minute.

Several times, we have stated in this forum that a hotel room is like an extension of your residence. You have control of it and can carry guns in there despite a 30.06 sign properly posted on the hotel doors. If the hotel room is an extension of your home (or the equivalent thereof) then this is a true statement.

But if I am asked to leave my own home or residence, I cannot be charged with criminal trespass for declining to leave. To get me out of my home against my will takes an eviction order from a court. This is true if I own the home and failed to pay a mortgage or tax on it, and it is true if I rent an apartment and break the lease in some way (such as having a loud party or not paying my rent).

The suspect in this case was charged with criminal trespass. I could be worried about things for no reason, having missed something somewhere. But I think this case needs to be watched very carefully to make sure we do not lose out on something by a poor decision.
Steve Rothstein


dlh
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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby dlh » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:39 am

srothstein wrote:I think we may need to pay very close attention to this case. It may have a side effect we do not like.

The man had rented a room from the hotel and was asked to leave. The police arrested him and did charge him with criminal trespass for refusing to leave. Think about this for a minute.

Several times, we have stated in this forum that a hotel room is like an extension of your residence. You have control of it and can carry guns in there despite a 30.06 sign properly posted on the hotel doors. If the hotel room is an extension of your home (or the equivalent thereof) then this is a true statement.

But if I am asked to leave my own home or residence, I cannot be charged with criminal trespass for declining to leave. To get me out of my home against my will takes an eviction order from a court. This is true if I own the home and failed to pay a mortgage or tax on it, and it is true if I rent an apartment and break the lease in some way (such as having a loud party or not paying my rent).

The suspect in this case was charged with criminal trespass. I could be worried about things for no reason, having missed something somewhere. But I think this case needs to be watched very carefully to make sure we do not lose out on something by a poor decision.


This is an interesting article discussing the rights and duties of hotels and their guests, but no mention of the criminal trespass issue:

http://www.dentonlaw.com/newsarticles/t ... t-alagood/


TreyHouston
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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby TreyHouston » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:10 pm

“Ziemba's bond is set at $100,000.
The DA's office said the bond is high because he was already out on bond when he committed another crime.” Added: will see the judge on Friday, I guess to enter plea?

I heard this at lunch today. His previous “crime” has to do with a weapons charge. From what I understood, this “crime” he is only being charged with trespassing and assault on an police officer.

WHO IS THIS GUY??
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srothstein
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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby srothstein » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:08 pm

dlh wrote:This is an interesting article discussing the rights and duties of hotels and their guests, but no mention of the criminal trespass issue:

http://www.dentonlaw.com/newsarticles/t ... t-alagood/


Thanks. That is an interesting article. It clears up certain points for me, including the criminal trespass issue. If the law specifically exempts the hotel from needing the eviction order (which is my wording of what it said in legalese), then the criminal trespass issue is valid. All it takes is the management to tell you to leave the property and you would be guilty of criminal trespass when you refused to leave.

The bad news is that the author, who is a lawyer but not my lawyer, explains that the hotel room is not treated as an extension of your residence. By specifically saying a rental of a hotel room is a license to use the room in accordance with the hotel's rules, it means the 30.06 warning does apply to us when we rent rooms. I would recommend avoiding all hotels where there is a 30.06 sign to be safe now, and not just because I disagree with their politics (posting against guns).
Steve Rothstein


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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby BBYC » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:11 pm

srothstein wrote:The bad news is that the author, who is a lawyer but not my lawyer, explains that the hotel room is not treated as an extension of your residence. By specifically saying a rental of a hotel room is a license to use the room in accordance with the hotel's rules, it means the 30.06 warning does apply to us when we rent rooms.

If a car rental company prohibits guns does that apply to LTC and MPA both, or only to unlicensed people if a vehicle is property but not premises?

Can a parking lot be off limits because paid or unpaid access is a license to park in accordance with their rules?
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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby kw5kw » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:22 pm

BBYC wrote:
srothstein wrote:The bad news is that the author, who is a lawyer but not my lawyer, explains that the hotel room is not treated as an extension of your residence. By specifically saying a rental of a hotel room is a license to use the room in accordance with the hotel's rules, it means the 30.06 warning does apply to us when we rent rooms.

If a car rental company prohibits guns, does that apply to LTC and MPA, or only to MPA?

Do you mean, would it mean while you are in the car rental company's office or while you are in the car while you're driving it? Some car rental company's don't want you driving fast (GPS transponders) or smoking and charge ("fine") you when you turn it in. I don't rent cars often, only when I have a vehicle being repaired. I never fly or take AMTRAK, I drive everywhere so I can be in control of what happens, when we stop, when we go, etc.
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Pariah3j
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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby Pariah3j » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:31 pm

srothstein wrote:I think we may need to pay very close attention to this case. It may have a side effect we do not like.

The man had rented a room from the hotel and was asked to leave. The police arrested him and did charge him with criminal trespass for refusing to leave. Think about this for a minute.

Several times, we have stated in this forum that a hotel room is like an extension of your residence. You have control of it and can carry guns in there despite a 30.06 sign properly posted on the hotel doors. If the hotel room is an extension of your home (or the equivalent thereof) then this is a true statement.

But if I am asked to leave my own home or residence, I cannot be charged with criminal trespass for declining to leave. To get me out of my home against my will takes an eviction order from a court. This is true if I own the home and failed to pay a mortgage or tax on it, and it is true if I rent an apartment and break the lease in some way (such as having a loud party or not paying my rent).

The suspect in this case was charged with criminal trespass. I could be worried about things for no reason, having missed something somewhere. But I think this case needs to be watched very carefully to make sure we do not lose out on something by a poor decision.


I didn't read the article linked, but my understanding is he was asked to leave the Bar in the Hotel, not his hotel room. That's where the criminal trespass charges come into play from what I was reading, but IANAL so I may be wrong here.
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Soccerdad1995
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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:37 pm

srothstein wrote:
dlh wrote:This is an interesting article discussing the rights and duties of hotels and their guests, but no mention of the criminal trespass issue:

http://www.dentonlaw.com/newsarticles/t ... t-alagood/


Thanks. That is an interesting article. It clears up certain points for me, including the criminal trespass issue. If the law specifically exempts the hotel from needing the eviction order (which is my wording of what it said in legalese), then the criminal trespass issue is valid. All it takes is the management to tell you to leave the property and you would be guilty of criminal trespass when you refused to leave.

The bad news is that the author, who is a lawyer but not my lawyer, explains that the hotel room is not treated as an extension of your residence. By specifically saying a rental of a hotel room is a license to use the room in accordance with the hotel's rules, it means the 30.06 warning does apply to us when we rent rooms. I would recommend avoiding all hotels where there is a 30.06 sign to be safe now, and not just because I disagree with their politics (posting against guns).


First off, IANAL. That said....

I am not sure that the interpretation of a hotel room not being an extension of your residence for certain purposes automatically means that 30.06 signs are applicable while you are in your room. But even if that is the case, I would note that 30.06 only applies to the carry of a concealed handgun by an LTC holder. It does not impact the ability of a non-LTC holder to possess a handgun while in their rented hotel room. That would be allowed under the travelling provision per Texas law. Since you are legally able to possess the gun while in your room, without availing yourself of your rights as an LTC holder, then it brings up that old question of whether an LTC holder is always carrying under the authority of their LTC, which, if true would make criminals out of any LEO's who have an LTC and who carry a concealed gun into a 30.06 posted location while they are off duty.

But even granting the above, it is important to note that the 30.06 provision still would not apply to open carry while in your room, or to storing the handgun in the room safe, etc. I guess you could be safe and put your gun in a locked box within a suitcase then have the bell hop bring your suitcase to your room (let's hope for his sake that the bell hop does not have an LTC, I guess). While in your room, either lock the gun in the room safe or carry it openly. Note that I doubt that carrying the gun in a locked box within your suitcase would meet the definition of "carrying" per 30.06 in the first place, which would save the poor bell hop, or you (if you choose to carry your own bags) from the remote possibility of $200 fine.

*The foregoing does not apply to volunteer emergency services personnel, of course.
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rotor
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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby rotor » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:42 pm

srothstein wrote:I think we may need to pay very close attention to this case. It may have a side effect we do not like.

The man had rented a room from the hotel and was asked to leave. The police arrested him and did charge him with criminal trespass for refusing to leave. Think about this for a minute.

Several times, we have stated in this forum that a hotel room is like an extension of your residence. You have control of it and can carry guns in there despite a 30.06 sign properly posted on the hotel doors. If the hotel room is an extension of your home (or the equivalent thereof) then this is a true statement.

But if I am asked to leave my own home or residence, I cannot be charged with criminal trespass for declining to leave. To get me out of my home against my will takes an eviction order from a court. This is true if I own the home and failed to pay a mortgage or tax on it, and it is true if I rent an apartment and break the lease in some way (such as having a loud party or not paying my rent).

The suspect in this case was charged with criminal trespass. I could be worried about things for no reason, having missed something somewhere. But I think this case needs to be watched very carefully to make sure we do not lose out on something by a poor decision.

I don't understand why we keep referring to 30.06 in this case. They guy brought firearms into a hotel that had a no firearm policy. He was asked to leave and refused. Trespass. Not a conceal carry case. He had a rifle as well. Am I missing something? Let's assume he did not have a gun and was asked to leave and refused. Trespass. Same thing.


srothstein
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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby srothstein » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:17 am

rotor wrote:I don't understand why we keep referring to 30.06 in this case. They guy brought firearms into a hotel that had a no firearm policy. He was asked to leave and refused. Trespass. Not a conceal carry case. He had a rifle as well. Am I missing something? Let's assume he did not have a gun and was asked to leave and refused. Trespass. Same thing.


I was pointing out the potential precedent the case would make and how it could be used against LTCs later on. I understand he was arrested in his room for refusing to leave the hotel, though that seems to be questionable right now. If he was in a room he rented and was asked to leave, the previous understanding was that the hotel would need to evict him since he rented the room (like renting an apartment). But this did not occur and he was arrested. The article I linked to also makes it clear that this is not so and that renting a hotel room is different from renting an apartment. The law says you must obey all hotel regulations. Thus, if a hotel says you cannot have guns there, then it is illegal for you to have guns there. The question of carrying with an LTC if the hotel is properly posted becomes critical.

As was pointed out, there may be other ways to carry the pistol to your room so that the signs do not apply. This may be a moot discussion because you might be able to claim the traveler's exemption instead. I think this might be a pretty good argument if you are at a hotel outside of the city you live in, at least.

I could very well be wrong, and several people seem to have at least thought about this, but I always watch out for bad case law coming from bad cases. I am concerned when I see something that can be used against me or my friends that they are not aware of. Some of the counter arguments raised make some very good points so this may not be as much of a problem as I thought.
Steve Rothstein


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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby BBYC » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:53 pm

kw5kw wrote:
BBYC wrote:
srothstein wrote:The bad news is that the author, who is a lawyer but not my lawyer, explains that the hotel room is not treated as an extension of your residence. By specifically saying a rental of a hotel room is a license to use the room in accordance with the hotel's rules, it means the 30.06 warning does apply to us when we rent rooms.

If a car rental company prohibits guns does that apply to LTC and MPA both, or only to unlicensed people if a vehicle is property but not premises?

Do you mean, would it mean while you are in the car rental company's office or while you are in the car while you're driving it? Some car rental company's don't want you driving fast (GPS transponders) or smoking and charge ("fine") you when you turn it in. I don't rent cars often, only when I have a vehicle being repaired. I never fly or take AMTRAK, I drive everywhere so I can be in control of what happens, when we stop, when we go, etc.

I mean in the rented vehicle which is not a premises.
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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby ELB » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:23 pm

srothstein wrote:... If the law specifically exempts the hotel from needing the eviction order (which is my wording of what it said in legalese), then the criminal trespass issue is valid. All it takes is the management to tell you to leave the property and you would be guilty of criminal trespass when you refused to leave.

...

The bad news is that the author, who is a lawyer but not my lawyer, explains that the hotel room is not treated as an extension of your residence.


I wandered off early in the thread, just came back. I don't know if this helps or but this squares with other cases I have read about around the country where Air BnB hosts have run into sticky problems with guests that stay over 30 days. It turns out that in some states, like California, if someone stays in a rental more than 30 days they switch from "guest" to "tenant" and can, as you noted about your home, decline to leave when asked. The Air BnB hosts then had to resort to standard landlord eviction processes -- which took months.

I wonder if Texas has a statutory limit like that? I did in fact stay in an AirBnB accommodation here in Texas for more than 30 days, reserved in advance. Maybe I should have changed my LTC and DL address? :lol:
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Caliber
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Re: New Year's eve arrest at Houston Hyatt

Postby Caliber » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:02 pm

If I remember correctly, as it relates Texas gun laws, your "home" is where you sleep overnight (including a hotel room), your car, or a house boat. If that's so, then he should be able to bring a gun into the hotel room.

Correct or no?


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