ID: Man looking for lost dog in shootout with police

[KD5NRH]

Sounds like there might have been drugs or alcohol involved.

The cops or the suspect?

[Excaliber]

Excellent post Excaliber. Thank you.

You're welcome. I'm glad you found it worthwhile.

[Bart]

He is in jail, charged with aggravated assault and discharging a firearm into an occupied dwelling. He was employed as a sergeant at the Idaho Department of Correction where he has worked for 12 years.

The four officers have been placed on administrative leave.

I hope that's just SOP for any shooting.

According to the reports.
1. The guy was armed.
2. He shoot at someone's home. While people were home.
3. He refused to drop his weapons.

It sounds like the police were justified in shooting and I hope they don't face any penalties for firing at an active shooter. Maybe some extra range time is a good idea but nothing bad on their service record.

It sounds like the corrections sergeant should spend a few years in genpop.

[KFP]

worthwhile.

[Excaliber]

worthwhile.

Something I should have pointed out during my earlier post is that the thought processes that lead some police officers to strive for excellence in firearms training as well as their other job skills, while others are happy to meet minimum requirements and leave it at that are not unique to police work. There are also factors in play in law enforcement that have very little parallel in the civilian sector.

This forum has seen multiple discussions about how much training one should continue to acquire after receiving a CHL, and how often one should carry. Some folks attend as many training courses as they can, practice religiously, read voraciously on the topic, and carry 24/7 because they truly understand that anything can happen to anyone anywhere and anytime. Then there are the folks who go to the range once every 5 years for mandatory qualifications and carry only "when they need to," however that might be determined. And then there's everyone else who falls somewhere in between.

These people and cops all come from the same basic population as police officers do, and their thought patterns are more consistent than not.

In the civilian world, it's generally assumed that police officers are much more conscious of their frequent exposure to potential danger and hone their skills accordingly. While this is certainly true of many officers, particularly early in their careers, many others who start out sharp and aware fall into the complacency trap and come to see their successful emergence from multiple dangerous situations as just the way things are and will always be - in other words, the norm.

While they understand intellectually that they can be hurt or killed, because no one has actually done that to them in the last few years, that possibility fades to the backs of their minds and they put less effort into constant preparedness and less "awareness effort" into their responses to danger. This slide into complacency is not due to ignorance or mental laziness in most cases. It's actually very difficult to maintain a consistent awareness of danger year after year and to maintain alertness to the "what ifs" on every call, even when you're sick, tired, had an argument with the spouse, or have to work a second job after your current shift. I think the phenomenon might be more accurately viewed as a form of mental exhaustion from constant exposure to violence, stress, death, and close calls over long periods of time. Give thought for a moment to what it would feel like to make good incident assessment decisions and use force aggressively and lawfully in 5 or 6 violent situations a week instead of once or twice in a lifetime. Then think what it would be like to repeat that experience every week for 25 years.

While in that weary mindset, it's easy to neglect skill maintenance and development because in your free time you just want to do something completely different and decompress. Over time it's really easy to lose critical skills and to set oneself up for walking into a situation you may not be able to get out of.

While it's easy to question what appears to be woefully inadequate use of firearms skills by officers in some well publicized incidents, the underlying reasons may be significantly more complex than laziness or a deficient training regimen.

[joe817]

Excaliber, I think you've just accurately defined the term "burn out"(with reference to explaining complacency).

I've often wondered if and/or how law enforcement officers could maintain day after day, week after week, year after year, etc, etc. etc. The answer is most can't....unless they rededicate themselves to keeping their skills sharp.

[bryang]

Thanks, Excaliber, well done as always.

-geo

[Liberty]

Arms Proficiency is only one skill. Political savy, Knowledge of department policy and procedure, and understanding the law, is what gets an officer promoted. Being better than "good enough" with firearms isn't usually going to help one move up the fod chain.

[C-dub]

Sorry about that everyone. I meant that as a rhetorical question with a bit of sarcasm in it. I have not been in a gun fight, but would like to think I can appreciate the chaotic nature of one.

I, too, believe it is my own responsibility to be proficient with my weapons.

[Excaliber]

Arms Proficiency is only one skill. Political savy, Knowledge of department policy and procedure, and understanding the law, is what gets an officer promoted. Being better than "good enough" with firearms isn't usually going to help one move up the fod chain.

While it's true that skill with firearms, if it's your only notable area of mastery, won't get you promoted, there's a good reason for that - it alone doesn't qualify you to competently lead others in high consequence situations. On the other hand, it's hardly a detriment either.

While some on the command staff may have sniffed on occasion at my interest in firearms and tactics, when the head of security for a major international organization called our agency head for a knowledgeable answer on a sticky firearms issue he was facing, guess who he called to deal with it? When the U.S. Dept of State called him to host visiting Russian police diginitaries, guess who he asked to show them around? They had a blast on our range, by the way - they'd never seen a computerized moving target system, and had never been able to fire more than a handful of practice rounds at a time back home. We gave them 9mm 5906's and boxes of ammo to play with until they got tired. When they saw our shooting techniques, they soberly observed they were glad to be our friends - and would hate to come up against us in combat. Their State Department hosts were pleased, to say the least.

Being able to confidently give knowledgeable help to high ranking folks like that in their time of need never hurt his career - or mine.

[Excaliber]

Excaliber, I think you've just accurately defined the term "burn out"(with reference to explaining complacency).

I've often wondered if and/or how law enforcement officers could maintain day after day, week after week, year after year, etc, etc. etc. The answer is most can't....unless they rededicate themselves to keeping their skills sharp.

The complacency I described could progress to burn out, which I see as the situation where one performs his job functions by just going through the motions and has to force himself to do even that. That's an extreme stage, and a very dangerous one that police supervisors need to spot early and act on quickly to prevent tragedy.

One of the most effective means of keeping officers sharp is to change their assignments and give them opportunities to develop and use new skills. Changing patrol areas from high activity to low activity areas (or the other way around), assignment to bike patrol, traffic enforcement (somebody's gotta do it), plainclothes and investigative units, etc. every couple of years goes a long way to keeping officers fresh, effective, and safe. It's much easier to do this in larger agencies than it is in small ones.

My personal observation is that leaving someone in essentially the same job (even with patrol area changes) for more than three years creates a high risk for negative changes in even the best officers. Even temporary reassignments (e.g., plainclothes to replace vacationing officers for 2 - 4 weeks) goes a long way toward keeping officers focused and fresh. The challenge is what to do with the minimally performing officer who doesn't want to do anything other than come to work, collect a paycheck, and go home. He or she doesn't perform any better with alternate assignments. But that's probably more of a selection / hiring issue and another discussion altogether.

[casingpoint]

Sounds like there might have been drugs or alcohol involved.

LOL. Yes, by the cops. Twelve shots, no hits. Barney Fife lives!

[seamusTX]

Update: The suspect, George G. Nickel Jr, was a decorated Iraq war veteran who was injured by a roadside bomb in February 2007. He was the sole survivor of the attack.

He was armed with a handgun and AR-15 rifle and was wearing a tactical vest with "as many as 90 rounds of ammunition" when he was arrested.

He surrendered without shooting at police.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/localnews ... 51411.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.idahostatesman.com/102/story/850012.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is a "tactical vest"? Does this mean what is often called a "bulletproof vest"? If so, it might explain the shots fired to no effect.

Congratulations to this newspaper for not using the term "assault weapon." It is Idaho, after all..

- Jim

[dicion]

What is a "tactical vest"? Does this mean what is often called a "bulletproof vest"? If so, it might explain the shots fired to no effect.

Probably just a MOLLE Vest with some mag pouches on it in one of a few different camo patterns, like this:



I have one that holds 9 AR Magazines, and like 12 1911 single stacks... It also has a drag handle so your buddies can pull ya out of the stuff...
It's on top of my TEOTWAWKI/Stuff+Fan/Zombie Apocalypse Box
How else am I going to carry enough ammunition to mow through the zombies on the way to the bunker in Conroe...