Federal Border agents try to intimidate travelers

[Doug.38PR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Y1PdY0pOFA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Y1PdY0pOFA[/youtube] (why isn't this posting in video format?)
Wow. One of them actually says, "I don't know why your being detained" but somehow they have a right to do it.

Last time I checked, it required either a warrant or probable cause to search and detain somebody.

She should have called DPS (state police) or the Sheriff herself and had them come out there and they should have told those guys to leave those people alone, quit obstructing traffic and do the job they are constitutionally authorized to do by the State of _______ , et al and leave the citizens of their state alone otherwise...or THEY will be arrested by State authorities

(If the governor of that state gets this video, he should send a detachment of State Troopers to babysit the border agents and make sure they don't do that again):txflag: (I think it's actually Arizona, but whether it's Texas or Arizona or anywhere, federal agents should not be allowed to take on that kind of arrogance and remember their place. The states created the federal government)

[jmra]

I have never had an issue at a checkpoint. I don't like them but I also don't like illegals running drugs from Mexico.
My experience at checkpoints has always been less than a 15 second conversation where I am asked if everyone in the vehicle is a US citizen. I say yes and we are on our way. Of course I always approach with all the windows down and a smile on my face. I have been surprised they have never given the cover on my truck a second glance.

I would be interested to know if anyone on the forum has had bad encounters. It seems to me that most of the people doing these videos at checkpoints intentionally make themselves suspicious in order to draw attention to themselves. Think about it, if the bins are empty don't you stack all of them inside eachother? I know I would.

[baldeagle]

It's very clear from the video that some border patrol agents have no idea what to do with a sovereign citizen. The supervisor obviously knew, because he released them, but the youngsters thought they could simply bully her into compliance. Thank God for whatever shreds of our Constitution still remain in effect.

[chasfm11]

I admit that some people seem to provoke confrontations with border patrol. Whether this one was or not isn't clear. It appears (unless the first part of the tape was edited off) that she turned on the camera when they first told her that they wanted her to pull over for secondary inspection.

There is quite a debate about the authority inside the border. Here is a link to what DHS claims
http://news.yahoo.com/does-constitution ... 13138.html

I fully support the mission of the border patrol. I personally believe that mission, like the mission of so many other Federal agencies, has been turned on its ear. I've seen a presentation by ranchers who live near one of the Texas checkpoints, where the illegals are dumped off before the checkpoint, make their way through that person's property, and are picked up again by vehicle on the opposite side of the checkpoint. They have difficulty getting border patrol to come to their property when they find illegals on it. Yet the border patrol spends its time as in this case, harassing American citizens at checkpoints.

I've been through the checkpoint near the King ranch and never had a problem, even in a large RV. They used a dog but I wasn't stopped for more than about 30 seconds. I'm not sure what I would do if they decided to send me to a secondary inspection with no more probably cause than I was driving an RV.

There seems to be some consistency in approach between TSA and Border Patrol. Both appear to exceed their authority at times. Perhaps it is a case where I'm looking to see problems and find them.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Please try to find the video on YouTube; Liveleak links are prohibited. The ads and other links are dynamic so what one person sees can be different for the next viewer.

Chas.

17. Links to LiveLeak.com prohibited. LiveLeak.com has a number of videos that would be appropriate for posting on TexasCHLforum. Unfortunately, it also has advertising/links to porn sites on most if not all of its video. Therefore, links to LiveLeak.com are prohibited.

[philip964]

I want to see all four corners of the US. I have been to two now. I saw the opportunity to get to the second on a trip through Canada. All I had to do was a short detour out of Canada, to Madawaska, Maine and back. When asked by the US Border Patrol in Madawaska what my destination in the US was, I said "we are going to follow US 1 to the end and then come back into Canada".

An hour later we were on our way.

Did you know they don't like it when you take your pills out of the prescription bottles and put them in those daily reminder plastic thingies.

[Dadtodabone]

My wife has developed an urge to watch birds. So we had to make the Rio Grande pilgrimage. "We" planned a driving trip of about 10 days with stops at South Padre and Edinburg then slowly up the valley on 83 until we headed home on 35.
She has also accumulated a fairly large collection of cameras and equipment that pack up neatly into black ballistic nylon bags. When combined with our black ballistic nylon luggage it makes a fairly substantial pile of black ballistic nylon.
I have been married to this woman for 39 years and know her to be a strong, forthright, yet gentle person. Her focus has been on raising and launching our 4 children onto happy, successful paths in life. With the care and feeding of Dad as a side project.

Yet when we were stopped at a CBP "Inspection Station" on 83, I thought she was possessed.

As is the nature of such trips, we modified our itinerary. Having heard rumors that there were mountains in Texas, she thought we might head west to investigate for ourselves. I, of course, agreed and we mapped a trip that was intended to take us north to I-10, our westward corridor, yet skip the dreary blandness of Texas interstate travel. 83 seemed to offer more variety in scenery and reasonable accommodations were available. So we continued north on 83 rather than 35.
Whether she was disappointed in the scenery(not much)or just not in the mood for polite conversation, after a verbal verification of our citizenship, when asked where we were bound by the friendly young fellow in a pickle suit, her reply was "That, young man, is not your concern."
She then informed him that unless he had probable cause to delay us further, the interview was at an end. He replied that he didn't need probable cause and that we should park in the secondary inspection area.

One hour and fifteen minutes later we left the inspection station.

I'll leave aside the unpleasantness that occurred with the CBP and share what we learned. My sister-in-law is somewhat of a muckity muck in a Fed ABC. My wife was burning the OnStar minutes within seconds of our exit from the inspection station(no signal, area or canopy, don't know) and we eventually learned:
#1 They don't need probable cause, Reasonable Suspicion is the threshold for search at an Inspection Station.
#2 They don't need to articulate that reasonable suspicion to you.
#3 Anything, as we found out later, can create reasonable suspicion.
#4 While not required by law, if directed to secondary inspection, do let the CBP agents know that you are armed. A friendly DPS Trooper visited us and checked our CHL status, after a fairly tense 20 minute wait.
#5 Don't travel with a disaffected woman.

Reasonable Suspicion? We were travelling in an area that doesn't see much tourist traffic. Our vehicle, 2010 GMC Acadia(my wife's runabout, triple white pearl something or other, shiny)was both reasonably expensive and dirty(6 days on the road at this point)! While entering our "Golden Years" we are both young at heart and reasonably vigorous, well dressed and groomed. I was wearing a "shoot me first vest" that became an issue a little later. 4 large BBN suitcases, 4 medium size BBN bags, 2 rifle length BBN cases(easel set, tripod), 2 BBN laptop bags. Although factory original equipment, Black tinted windows in the rear seat and cargo area.
The CBP agent had seen the luggage through the lowered window as he greeted us. When combined with the other "indicators" we exhibited, he had a "reasonable suspicion" that we were "traffickers".

Dress and Grooming, Short hair, clean shaven, khaki slacks, Galco belt, button down white shirt, Sperry Topsiders, good quality watch. "the vest". Semi-Rachel haircut(don't tell her I called it that), conservative make-up, pastel yellow cotton polo, nice jeans, brown leather belt and brown leather sandals, minimal jewelry, a couple of bangles, watch, Celtic cross on a small necklace(I thought she looked fetching). Our appearance was not the "norm" for motorists in this area. Being slightly unkempt while attired in Tee shirts, cargo shorts, cut offs, flip flops or tennies would be appropriate.
Expensive dirty car, equals Mexico. Find a $6 carwash regularly.
The luggage, not just the quantity, but the material used in it's manufacture was an indicator. In the future I'll probably go with doubled up WalMart plastic bags.
The Vest. A somewhat more mature CBP agent joined us in secondary inspect, saw the vest, placed his hand on his service pistol and politely asked if I was armed. My wife replied "Of course he's armed, legally I might add, as am I!" The next few moments of negotiation were tense. my wife was able to display her CHL without doing anything to further alarm the CBP agents and we waited for DPS. CBP agents are not "peace officers" in Texas. I'm keeping the vest, I like it, I carry a 5" 1911 with ease.
My thanks to ya'll for listening. And to my sister-in-law for gathering the info on our stop.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Your wife has spirit, unfortunately this time it was not at the ideal location... Fortunately in our one interaction with the Po Po in the last ten years, the wife remained her pleasant cheerful self (until she couldn't find her insurance).

[RoyGBiv]

So what's the "right thing to say" when you don't want to answer invasive questions and also don't want to get hassled for an hour or more.?

[texanjoker]

My wife has developed an urge to watch birds. So we had to make the Rio Grande pilgrimage. "We" planned a driving trip of about 10 days with stops at South Padre and Edinburg then slowly up the valley on 83 until we headed home on 35.
She has also accumulated a fairly large collection of cameras and equipment that pack up neatly into black ballistic nylon bags. When combined with our black ballistic nylon luggage it makes a fairly substantial pile of black ballistic nylon.
I have been married to this woman for 39 years and know her to be a strong, forthright, yet gentle person. Her focus has been on raising and launching our 4 children onto happy, successful paths in life. With the care and feeding of Dad as a side project.

Yet when we were stopped at a CBP "Inspection Station" on 83, I thought she was possessed.

As is the nature of such trips, we modified our itinerary. Having heard rumors that there were mountains in Texas, she thought we might head west to investigate for ourselves. I, of course, agreed and we mapped a trip that was intended to take us north to I-10, our westward corridor, yet skip the dreary blandness of Texas interstate travel. 83 seemed to offer more variety in scenery and reasonable accommodations were available. So we continued north on 83 rather than 35.
Whether she was disappointed in the scenery(not much)or just not in the mood for polite conversation, after a verbal verification of our citizenship, when asked where we were bound by the friendly young fellow in a pickle suit, her reply was "That, young man, is not your concern."
She then informed him that him that unless he had probable cause to delay us further, the interview was at an end. He replied that he didn't need probable cause and that we should park in the secondary inspection area.

One hour and fifteen minutes later we left the inspection station.

I'll leave aside the unpleasantness that occurred with the CBP and share what we learned. My sister-in-law is somewhat of a muckity muck in a Fed ABC. My wife was burning the OnStar minutes within seconds of our exit from the inspection station(no signal, area or canopy, don't know) and we eventually learned:
#1 They don't need probable cause, Reasonable Suspicion is the threshold for search at an Inspection Station.
#2 They don't need to articulate that reasonable suspicion to you.
#3 Anything, as we found out later, can create reasonable suspicion.
#4 While not required by law, if directed to secondary inspection, do let the CBP agents know that you are armed. A friendly DPS Trooper visited us and checked our CHL status, after a fairly tense 20 minute wait.
#5 Don't travel with a disaffected woman.

Reasonable Suspicion? We were travelling in an area that doesn't see much tourist traffic. Our vehicle, 2012 GMC Acadia(my wife's runabout, triple white pearl something or other, shiny)was both reasonably expensive and dirty(6 days on the road at this point)! While entering our "Golden Years" we are both young at heart and reasonably vigorous, well dressed and groomed. I was wearing a "shoot me first vest" that became an issue a little later. 4 large BBN suitcases, 4 medium size BBN bags, 2 rifle length BBN cases(easel set, tripod), 2 BBN laptop bags. Although factory original equipment, Black tinted windows in the rear seat and cargo area.
The CBP agent had seen the luggage through the lowered window as he greeted us. When combined with the other "indicators" we exhibited, he had a "reasonable suspicion" that we were "traffickers".

Dress and Grooming, Short hair, clean shaven, khaki slacks, Galco belt, button down white shirt, Sperry Topsiders, good quality watch. "the vest". Semi-Rachel haircut(don't tell her I called it that), conservative make-up, pastel yellow cotton polo, nice jeans, brown leather belt and brown leather sandals, minimal jewelry, a couple of bangles, watch, Celtic cross on a small necklace(I thought she looked fetching). Our appearance was not the "norm" for motorists in this area. Being slightly unkempt while attired in Tee shirts, cargo shorts, cut offs, flip flops or tennies would be appropriate.
Expensive dirty car, equals Mexico. Find a $6 carwash regularly.
The luggage, not just the quantity, but the material used in it's manufacture was an indicator. In the future I'll probably go with doubled up WalMart plastic bags.

The Vest. A somewhat more mature CBP agent joined us in secondary inspect, saw the vest, placed his hand on his service pistol and politely asked if I was armed. My wife replied "Of course he's armed, legally I might add, as am I!" The next few moments of negotiation were tense. my wife was able to display her CHL without doing anything to further alarm the CBP agents and we waited for DPS. CBP agents are not "peace officers" in Texas. I'm keeping the vest, I like it, I carry a 5" 1911

with ease.
My thanks to ya'll for listening. And to my sister-in-law for gathering the info on our stop.

No video to see.

IMO that is a poor decision to not notify an agent that you are armed while being searched. I never say anything driving through, but if sent to secondary I would as that is common courtesy. Had they seen the gun or your hand brushed it the situation could have been real ugly real quick. They are doing their job and why make it more difficult?

Having worked many overtime details at check points, the powers of the feds are unreal. They can pretty much search whatever they want at a check point. When working those details under their authority one all of a sudden has magic powers that one would not normally have as a regular LEO. I have learned that smugglers come in all shapes and forms and there are many indicators that I won't get into. The smugglers often try and run over the agents and it is pretty dangerous. I can say from working with them they get treated like garbage non stop and the ones working the borders have a tough job as nobody likes them, they often get shot at, yet they are our only line of defense against all that crosses the border. Maybe it's just me but I cut them some slack.

My best time going through was a couple years back in New Mexico (i think)... I had just p/u my retired K9 and they were trying to walk my suburban with their k9..... my k9 was not having anything to do with it and made it be known. The agent wanted to peer in and when I told him my dog was a patrol (attack) and narc k9 he put his dog up as it would not have been wise to try and peer in the window. We then had a talk for a bit about the pooches.

[Cedar Park Dad]

I'd proffer same aas going through customs at an airport. State your business in a businesslike fashion.

[Dadtodabone]

So what's the "right thing to say" when you don't want to answer invasive questions and also don't want to get hassled for an hour or more.?

I would mention my fifth amendment rights and say nothing further to any questions. The Supremes have ruled that being detained at a checkpoint is a lawful seizure due to the brevity of the stop. They have also ruled that "A refusal to cooperate, does not furnish the minimal level of objective justification needed for a detention or seizure (Florida v. Bostick). The Fifth Circuit that holds jurisdiction over the Inspection Station on 83, in the matter of another station in Uvalde, Texas agrees stating, “It would make a mockery of the reasonable suspicion and probable cause requirements if citizens' insistence that searches and seizures be conducted in conformity with constitutional norms could create the suspicion or cause that renders their consent unnecessary (United States v. Machuca-Barrera).”
You do not have to cooperate with agents at these checkpoints, and after a few minutes to inquire into immigration status, CBP agents who are unable to articulate a reasonable suspicion for any crimes, must release you or be in violation of the 4A. Even if you choose not to answer questions or cooperate.

[nightmare69]

Fastest way through a checkpoint WITHOUT having to answer any questions....

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=3kmmEmsuFN4[/youtube]

[Jaguar]

Dadtodabone, I think you are mistaken on Reasonable Suspicion - but the CBP agents seem to be too, as to what they can and cannot do.

According to the CBP Inspector's Field Manual, page 167-8, (link to PDF: http://shusterman.com/pdf/cbpinspectorsfieldmanual.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) there are three types of "suspicions" they have.

18.7 Degrees of Suspicion.
(a) Mere Suspicion. At the border or its functional equivalent, an inspector needs only mere suspicion to justify a search and comply with the requirements of the Fourth Amendment. This is because the person is attempting to enter the United States from abroad and may reasonably be required to demonstrate that the person and his or her belongings are entitled to enter the United States.

Note that the Mere Suspicion is only usable at the border or it's functional equivalent, that is airports with international flights, ports, and railways from Mexico or Canada. At an internal suspicionless checkpoint Mere Suspicion cannot be used.

(b) Reasonable Suspicion. Before an inspector may constitutionally detain a person (non-entry related case), the inspector must have reasonable suspicion that the person is an alien and is illegally in the United States. This higher degree of suspicion arises generally in questioning persons encountered in and around the port who are awaiting persons referred to secondary. This suspicion is based on questioning of alienage alone and also involves specific articulable facts, such as particular characteristics or circumstances which the inspector can describe in words.

Here, Reasonable Suspicion may be used ONLY to detain and question travelers. This is not what determines if a search can be made, only detainment and questioning. If they searched you based upon Reasonable Suspicion they violated their own policies as well as the law. Also, it is ONLY for immigration purposes - not a catch all for weapons, durgs or what not. These checkpoints are not catchall law enforcement zones, they are specific for immigration only.

(c) Probable Cause. Probable cause is the degree of suspicion which an inspector must have before constitutionally making an arrest under either civil or criminal law. An inspector has probable cause to arrest or search if evidence and circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that an offense has been or is being committed are known by the inspector.

This is where a search and arrest can be made - and it is the same standard for all law enforcement officers. Since they did not have Probable Cause to search you (they did not have probable cause that you were in the country illegally), they violated the law and their own field manual. I would submit you and your wife MAY(?) have risen to the level of Reasonable Suspicion with all your bags, but a quick question of content would be all that could be asked of you, and sufficient explanation would serve to dismiss those suspicions.

Your miles may vary, but IF I ever make it south where I would run into an internal suspicionless checkpoint, I will have the "please turn to page 167-8 of your field manual and tell what I am doing to create Probable Cause, and call the Sheriff of this county for me, I would like the opinion of "actual" law enforcement" speech ready, before ever unlocking my door.

[steveincowtown]

They are doing their job and why make it more difficult?

I would say (and think a few here would agree) that due to the fact that there job is in direct conflict with my rights, I am not really concerned with how difficult it is for them.




That being said I have crossed into the US through various checkpoints 100+ times I can say this with 100% certainty. There is no right way to look. There is no right thing to say. There is not right way to act. If the CBP agents wants to rattle your cage, he will; if he does not he won't.

I have come back in flip flops and a Tshirt from a 1 day trip to Asia (looks suspicious do to the short nature of the trip) carrying bags of samples (to much luggage for a short trip) and have been waved through.

I have also come back from a 2 week trip with only my carry on, wearing a suit, and been detained and challenged to a set of mind games. In this particular case the CBP agent asked why I had Fed Ex 3 packages from China back to the US, and what there contents were. I hadn't Fed Ex'd anything, but the question worked at catching me off guard. To be honest after 28 hours of traveling it was a bit irritating.

Compare the US system to those around the world and I would give the personnel a C, the procedures an F, and the effectiveness of the procedures a D-.