Are you required to provide a quality service to everyone?

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mojo84
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Re: Are you required to provide a quality service to everyon

#91

Post by mojo84 »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
Cedar Park Dad wrote:How about this: To those believing they would not serve homosexuals because it is a sin, who else would they not serve? Again thisquestion is restricted to legal activities and counterparties only.

Again, I'm not objecting, on libertarian grounds, but its interesting as I've never heard anyone refuse service to a group before outside of this or racists.
The double standard here is incredible.

A quote from another thread that says it all.
I'm not a Christian conservative. I'm a libertarian. I don't want some foam at the mouth bible thumper trying to use the government to tell me what to do any more than some Austin/Berkeley ...
What double standard? I'm asking a question. I've said nothing against your right to do business with who you want to do business with.
Do people not ask questions in your world?
To answer your question, I would not work with a doctor that performs certain elective medical procedures. I also would not work with a group or organization that promotes those procedures. I also would not work with a purveyer or promoter of porn. What's your point?
Just trying to find out what other groups you would object to. If you object to homosexuals, do you deal with divorced couples?
If you want to play that game. Do you not have any standards to determine with whom you associate?

Nothing is absolute. Even claiming to be a libertarian.

I've played longer than I should have. My point gas been made. It's all yours now.
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Re: Are you required to provide a quality service to everyon

#92

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

mojo84 wrote:
Of you want to play that game. Do you not have any standards to determine with whom you associate?

Nothing is absolute. Even claiming to be a libertarian.

I've played longer than I should have. My point gas been made. It's all yours now.
MMm you seem to think I'm trying to entrap you or say you're doing something wrong. I've made no judgements here. I can understand the groups you just mentioned. I'm just trying to understand what groups those relying on religious opinions would not do business with.

You asked on mine:
I follow the law. My business ethics revolve around doing business responsibly. I do not involve myself in the morals of my clients. This is why -to the original question - I would not countenance intentionally performing a poor service. If others want to, as long as they are obeying the law thats their call. They are free to not contract, just like the party they don't want to do business with is free to not contract with them and tell all their friends.

I'm sure there are exceptions. If the Klan or racists were "a group" then I wouldn't voluntarily do business with them. Also vegans, because they aren't real people. :tiphat:

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Re: Are you required to provide a quality service to everyon

#93

Post by Abraham »

I find the idea of same sex marriage ludicrous and frankly repulsive, that said:

If you go into a restaurant and are not served because you're black, muslim, hispanic, orthodox jew, flaming gay, foreign etc, you cannot be refuse service because as a business serving the public, you the business person have no option to refuse service based on race, creed or color. Right? All have to be served. I do believe it's the law...?

So, if a gay couple requests your service, I don't really understand using religion as a method of service refusal.

If you serve the public, you serve ALL the public, even if you find it distasteful.

(and yes I understand the argument that says why insist as a customer on using a specific business that doesn't want your business - obviously, you can elsewhere where your business is welcome, but maybe you prefer a particular business's cake or whatever over all others available...)

If my logic is off base, please advise.

Thanks!
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VMI77
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Re: Are you required to provide a quality service to everyon

#94

Post by VMI77 »

talltex wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote: But heterosexuality is the default state for human beings, by a percentage of 97%+. People do not grow up wondering if they are straight, nor do they wrestle with the possibility that they might be straight. That 97% doesn't even think about or question their orientation, because heterosexuality is the biological norm. OTH, some people......in deviation from the default biological norm....do end up wondering if they might or might not be gay, and wrestling with that possibility....and then coming to the conclusion that they prefer their same gender for slap and tickle, and then choosing to go ahead and live their lives that way. In so doing, they are choosing to depart from the biological default. I, on the other hand, do not have to make that choice. In fact, I didn't choose at all. It's not that heterosexuality is my preference, it is that heterosexual is what I am.
I don't disagree with your statement that heterosexuality is the biological norm. I'm in the norm and have been married to the same woman for 31 years. I think your statistics are a little off though...even back in the 50's/60's both Masters and Johnson and the Kinsey Report concluded that at least 10% of the population was not strictly hetero. Your last statement regarding choice is right at the heart of the debate. IF the statistic were reversed, and straight was the minority, do you honestly think you would be able to make the CHOICE to not be hetero? Most of the scientific research has concluded that sexuality is NOT a choice...just as you say about yourself. In most cases it's buried in the genetic coding just as most all human characteristics are. The vast majority of people are right handed...that is the default state, yet many are left handed. They didn't choose to be left handed...they simply are. At one time, being left handed was considered a "mark of the Devil" and even into the mid 20th century some parents and schools tried to force left handed children to become right handed. That concept is considered ludicrous today. Homosexual behavior has been scientifically observed and documented in every mammalian species, which lends even more credence to it being a "genetic aberration" from the norm rather than a choice. If that is the case (which I think it is) then it is not right to discriminate against someone just because they were created with a different biological urge than the majority. No more than to say left handed people are not entitled to the same rights as right handed folks just because they too are a deviation from the norm. Bottom line for me is, I just don't care who anyone else is attracted to or what they do about it. It has no effect on me whatsoever, and as long as they are happy with each other then I'm fine with it.

Kinsey was not an objective researcher and his studies have been widely discredited. My father had the books on his research when I was young and I was quite surprised when I got older to learn that Kinsey's research and methods were far from scientific.
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VMI77
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Re: Are you required to provide a quality service to everyon

#95

Post by VMI77 »

Abraham wrote:I find the idea of same sex marriage ludicrous and frankly repulsive, that said:

If you go into a restaurant and are not served because you're black, muslim, hispanic, orthodox jew, flaming gay, foreign etc, you cannot be refuse service because as a business serving the public, you the business person have no option to refuse service based on race, creed or color. Right? All have to be served. I do believe it's the law...?

So, if a gay couple requests your service, I don't really understand using religion as a method of service refusal.

If you serve the public, you serve ALL the public, even if you find it distasteful.

(and yes I understand the argument that says why insist as a customer on using a specific business that doesn't want your business - obviously, you can elsewhere where your business is welcome, but maybe you prefer a particular business's cake or whatever over all others available...)

If my logic is off base, please advise.


Thanks!
Refusing to serve people based on their protected class status, even if it wasn't against the law, is generally not a smart business practice, although I suppose in some places under some circumstances it could be. Businesses should succeed or fail based on their own service or stupidity --the government should have nothing to do with it.

Personally, I would never open a business that deals with the general public, not because I have a need or desire to discriminate by race, color, creed, sexuality, or religion, but because I've observed what dealing with the general public entails, and I have no desire to deal with all the idiots, deadbeats, liars, crooks, and other social deviants that you're inevitably confronted with.
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Re: Are you required to provide a quality service to everyon

#96

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

I can understand. I'd never want to work where they had to deal with people like me day in and day out. :reddevil

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Re: Are you required to provide a quality service to everyon

#97

Post by Abraham »

I'm very conservative, but I don't view discrimination as a good thing.

I think, generally speaking, it was the government that changed most forms of this type discrimination.

I remember as a kid blacks had to ride in the back of the bus, sit only in the balcony at the movie theatre, make darn sure they observed and obeyed marked signs stating white only drinking facilities / separate public drinking water facilities and restrooms, which were often substandard compared to the same for whites. In restaurants blacks had to eat in the kitchen if served at all, sparse lodging available for blacks when traveling, and the list of this type thing was endless.

I didn't read about this, I witnessed it.

A lot of white folks thought this type treatment of blacks was o.k., because of this and that reasoning that really was simply rationalizing discrimination - some of it based on religion.

Again, if you serve the public, serve all the public, or get out of business.
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Re: Are you required to provide a quality service to everyon

#98

Post by LSUTiger »

K.Mooneyham wrote:I've been thinking about the whole "gay marriage cake" thing. I am not a baker, nor do I produce any other tangible product, I just want to put this out there as a hypothetical. My question, as in the title, is are you required to produce a quality product? That is, if you were forced to bake said cake or have the state and/or Feds come down on you, what if you simply made a really lousy cake? Not one that was harmful, just one that was poorly made and tasted bad, like a really dry cake? What could the consequences be, from a legal standpoint, from such an action?

EDITED TO ADD:

I ask this question because a former NYC Councilwoman said she would force businesses to serve those Westboro folks. What if they came in and wanted a "glad soldiers died" cake? They are some pretty nasty folks, IMO.
IANAL (how ironic to use that acronym about gay weddings) , but if your principles come before your profit, probably worst case a refund on the cost of the cake and a little bad press, totally worth it IMHO if someone wants to force me to violate my beliefs then I would have no problem ruining their "special" day with less than by best effort. Maybe after a few bad gay wedding cakes the word would get out and request for gay wedding cakes would lessen or cease. No problem making them a good birthday cake though, but chances are that's business you will lose.
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Re: Are you required to provide a quality service to everyon

#99

Post by ScooterSissy »

talltex wrote:...
No more than to say left handed people are not entitled to the same rights as right handed folks just because they too are a deviation from the norm. Bottom line for me is, I just don't care who anyone else is attracted to or what they do about it. It has no effect on me whatsoever, and as long as they are happy with each other then I'm fine with it.
So, if I'm left handed, should I be able to insist that Home Depot sell me a door with the handles on the left side instead of the right. Then head on over to Murphy's Music and insist on a left handed guitar? Every motorcycle I've ever seen on a showroom has the throttle designed for righties. Should they be required to not discriminate?

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Re: Are you required to provide a quality service to everyon

#100

Post by ScooterSissy »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:How about this: To those believing they would not serve homosexuals because it is a sin, who else would they not serve? Again thisquestion is restricted to legal activities and counterparties only.

Again, I'm not objecting, on libertarian grounds, but its interesting as I've never heard anyone refuse service to a group before outside of this or racists.
I think the issue is that once the "creative process" is involved, the person involved feels they are participants. It's one thing to tolerate another's views, it's altogether different to particpate.

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Re: Are you required to provide a quality service to everyon

#101

Post by ScooterSissy »

Abraham wrote:I find the idea of same sex marriage ludicrous and frankly repulsive, that said:

If you go into a restaurant and are not served because you're black, muslim, hispanic, orthodox jew, flaming gay, foreign etc, you cannot be refuse service because as a business serving the public, you the business person have no option to refuse service based on race, creed or color. Right? All have to be served. I do believe it's the law...?

So, if a gay couple requests your service, I don't really understand using religion as a method of service refusal.

If you serve the public, you serve ALL the public, even if you find it distasteful.

(and yes I understand the argument that says why insist as a customer on using a specific business that doesn't want your business - obviously, you can elsewhere where your business is welcome, but maybe you prefer a particular business's cake or whatever over all others available...)

If my logic is off base, please advise.

Thanks!
That's part of the root of the question - the groups you mentioned are protected classes (except gay, in some areas, and foreign). In some states, gays are a protected class. In others, they are not.

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Re: Are you required to provide a quality service to everyon

#102

Post by ScooterSissy »

Abraham wrote:I'm very conservative, but I don't view discrimination as a good thing.

I think, generally speaking, it was the government that changed most forms of this type discrimination.

I remember as a kid blacks had to ride in the back of the bus, sit only in the balcony at the movie theatre, make darn sure they observed and obeyed marked signs stating white only drinking facilities / separate public drinking water facilities and restrooms, which were often substandard compared to the same for whites. In restaurants blacks had to eat in the kitchen if served at all, sparse lodging available for blacks when traveling, and the list of this type thing was endless.

I didn't read about this, I witnessed it.

A lot of white folks thought this type treatment of blacks was o.k., because of this and that reasoning that really was simply rationalizing discrimination - some of it based on religion.

Again, if you serve the public, serve all the public, or get out of business.
Abraham, the things you're speaking of were mandated by the government.
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