TexasCHLforum.com

cb1000rider wrote:Wait.. it the tide turning here? What happened to mamma-said, the company you keep, and what you wear matters? OK, I made that last bit up about what you wear... But still, it amazes me that outspoken, law-abiding, conservative, constitution-believing people could ever support an such an obvious round up and throw-away the key... Even if it did net quite a few bad guys.

Makes me want to go live on an island. No, you don't need to second that motion..

I'm starting to rethink the way the way we look at the political strata in this society. In my view, the most important distinction now is not conservative vs. (liberal/progressive/whatever), but those who support freedom and the constitution and those who support authoritarianism. An example is the number of "conservatives" on my FB page who blindly support the authorities/public servants in all situations, and who's mantra seems to be "well if that unarmed guy hadn't been running, he'd be alive now, right? Nope, just answer my question, If that guy hadn't run he'd be alive, right?" Very disillusioning.

cb1000rider wrote:Wait.. it the tide turning here? What happened to mamma-said, the company you keep, and what you wear matters? OK, I made that last bit up about what you wear... But still, it amazes me that outspoken, law-abiding, conservative, constitution-believing people could ever support an such an obvious round up and throw-away the key... Even if it did net quite a few bad guys.

Makes me want to go live on an island. No, you don't need to second that motion..

Tide turning? I'm not seeing any changed minds. I have tempered my comments somewhat, but some of this, as indicated in my questions about the "buried weapons" is so ludicrous it simply beggars belief. Do you not think the buried weapons stuff is laugh out loud funny? How often do you see nearly complete silence from the authorities when the facts are on their side? I guess I paid too much attention in school when our history and social studies classes characterized government actions based on guilt by association and mass arrests as features of police states and totalitarian societies like Soviet Russia and Communist China.

The thing is that we're now well past the time when you can reasonably assume a government agency is telling the truth, especially if the truth is going to make them look bad or lead to consequences. The Feds are the most pathological liars but police agencies of all kinds get caught lying again and again and again. As GWB once said: "Fool me once shame on me, fool me twice...won't get fooled again."

VM: It smelled bad to me from the beginning. No doubt that they probably got some bad guys, but the entire round-up was a bit ludicrous as was the claim as to number of weapons found.. Part of it may be the media... All I know is that a bunch of "really dangerous" bikers got into some trouble, law enforcement was there and waiting, and all the bad guys got arrested or killed without a single outside or collateral injury. It's a very impressive story. Very impressive. It may well be a model of future engagement, but I suspect it's going to come well short of that.

The facts is that we still don't know what happened, so it's all conjecture (on my part) at this point.

First report that Waco PD (or MSM) put out was 12 shell casings of which 10 were by LEO.
Not sure how factual the report is and we may never know the truth

ELB wrote:

Dave2 wrote: ...
Why are they assuming that weapons found buried in the ground belonged to the bikers?

Why on earth would they assume otherwise?

When would the biker who owned it have had time to bury anything without being noticed?
Why would anyone go to the trouble of burying a weapon somewhere where they might need to get to it in a hurry? I mean if the guy's plan was to beat a path to the burial site with a shovel, why couldn't he just continue using the shovel that's already in his hand instead of hassling with digging something up?

Dunno, maybe one of them just has a thing for burying weapons in the front yard before he or she sits down to eat, but the idea of a guy pulling up on his bike and then burying, well, anything, really, seems a bit far-fetched.

VMI77 wrote:

Dave2 wrote:

DocV wrote:http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks ... 6efa0.html

Waco Tribune wrote:The release also states the number of weapons discovered at the crime scene has increased to 475 “and may continue to increase.” The list includes 151 firearms, 12 of which were long guns. Other weapons include knives, brass knuckles, batons, tomahawks, weighted weapons, a hatchet, stun guns, bats, clubs, a machete, a pipe, an ax, pepper spray and a chain.

“Some were found using metal detectors as they were buried beneath the grass in the dirt,” the release said.

Why are they assuming that weapons found buried in the ground belonged to the bikers?

I'm more interested in when this burying took place and how.....either they buried weapons while under police observation or they would have had to bury them in advance of the meeting. Seems a little strange that people burying guns in a shopping center wouldn't be noticed by anyone or draw any attention. And how were they buried....just in the dirt, inside plastic bags, etc? How deep? When they were burying these guns were they wearing their MC gear or had they disguised themselves as gardeners or something? Did they use their hands or were they out digging holes around the shopping center with shovels? Did both sides in the conflict bury weapons, and if so, how did they make sure they didn't run into the other side at the time? How long beforehand were the guns buried...the night before, week before, month before? Seems like the longer they were in the ground the greater the chance of being discovered, and if they did it just prior, since the police were on to this meeting, were they watching the shopping center? If they weren't why weren't they? If they were did the police dig the weapons up before the meeting to deny one possibility of escalation? If not, why not? If they needed the weapons how were they going to retrieve them in a fight? Dig holes in exposed positions while the bullets were flying? If the police had to use metal detectors to find them how were they going to find them in a firefight? If they planned to dig them up before the fight how were they going to do it without tipping off the other side, and why didn't they dig them up? Were they throwaways or were they going to come back and dig them up later if they weren't needed, risking another opportunity to be caught?

I think the likely case is not that they were burying anything beforehand. They had all the people they detained standing and sitting around the parking lots and on the grassy area for 3-5 hours after the fight before they started processing them and taking them downtown. Look back at some of the photos and you can see guys lined up sitting on the curb around the shrubs and beds filled with mulch. I doubt that very many of the "weapons" recovered were guns but with all the folks milling around for several hours it wouldnt be very hard to remove a knife or spray or knuckles or even a pistol from a boot or inside vest pocket and unobtrusively slide it under the mulch or in the case of a knife push it down into the grass all the way. There's going to be a LOT of legal problems for the prosecution to overcome to link anyone other than the Bandidos or Cossacks to the organized crime charges...and even there it's not going to be a slam dunk by any means. The ones they can spot on video actually participating in the fight can probably be convicted on other charges than RICO.

talltex wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

Dave2 wrote:

DocV wrote:http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks ... 6efa0.html

Waco Tribune wrote:The release also states the number of weapons discovered at the crime scene has increased to 475 “and may continue to increase.” The list includes 151 firearms, 12 of which were long guns. Other weapons include knives, brass knuckles, batons, tomahawks, weighted weapons, a hatchet, stun guns, bats, clubs, a machete, a pipe, an ax, pepper spray and a chain.

“Some were found using metal detectors as they were buried beneath the grass in the dirt,” the release said.

Why are they assuming that weapons found buried in the ground belonged to the bikers?

I'm more interested in when this burying took place and how.....either they buried weapons while under police observation or they would have had to bury them in advance of the meeting. Seems a little strange that people burying guns in a shopping center wouldn't be noticed by anyone or draw any attention. And how were they buried....just in the dirt, inside plastic bags, etc? How deep? When they were burying these guns were they wearing their MC gear or had they disguised themselves as gardeners or something? Did they use their hands or were they out digging holes around the shopping center with shovels? Did both sides in the conflict bury weapons, and if so, how did they make sure they didn't run into the other side at the time? How long beforehand were the guns buried...the night before, week before, month before? Seems like the longer they were in the ground the greater the chance of being discovered, and if they did it just prior, since the police were on to this meeting, were they watching the shopping center? If they weren't why weren't they? If they were did the police dig the weapons up before the meeting to deny one possibility of escalation? If not, why not? If they needed the weapons how were they going to retrieve them in a fight? Dig holes in exposed positions while the bullets were flying? If the police had to use metal detectors to find them how were they going to find them in a firefight? If they planned to dig them up before the fight how were they going to do it without tipping off the other side, and why didn't they dig them up? Were they throwaways or were they going to come back and dig them up later if they weren't needed, risking another opportunity to be caught?

I think the likely case is not that they were burying anything beforehand. They had all the people they detained standing and sitting around the parking lots and on the grassy area for 3-5 hours after the fight before they started processing them and taking them downtown. Look back at some of the photos and you can see guys lined up sitting on the curb around the shrubs and beds filled with mulch. I doubt that very many of the "weapons" recovered were guns but with all the folks milling around for several hours it wouldnt be very hard to remove a knife or spray or knuckles or even a pistol from a boot or inside vest pocket and unobtrusively slide it under the mulch or in the case of a knife push it down into the grass all the way. There's going to be a LOT of legal problems for the prosecution to overcome to link anyone other than the Bandidos or Cossacks to the organized crime charges...and even there it's not going to be a slam dunk by any means. The ones they can spot on video actually participating in the fight can probably be convicted on other charges than RICO.

Good point.....especially given how everything is a weapon these days according to the government. I think 99% of whatever gets to court is going to evaporate once the facts come out.

Interesting article pertaining to this case.

Vehicle forfeiture documents reveal new details about deadly biker shootout

http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks ... 1609e.html

esxmarkc wrote:Interesting article pertaining to this case.

Vehicle forfeiture documents reveal new details about deadly biker shootout

http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks ...

I read that earlier tonight...a lot of info in the comments from both Cossacks and Bandidos members. Some of them pretty open about it, saying they were called to show up there from out of the area and told to come prepared. Several stated they came armed with guns and knives and threw them down after the shooting. One of them was identifiable on video shooting someone then throwing the pistol down in the parking lot and walking away and he admitted it. Two officers came around the corner of the building and saw two Bandidos shooting a Cossack that was laying on the ground, who then dropped their weapons at the officer's command. The police had talked to the local Cossacks chapter President, at his motorcycle dealership in Waco, before the event, and he told them he and his son (who is Sergeant at Arms of the chapter) were expecting trouble and were prepared for it and were going to attend the meeting.

Dang, reading about specific murderous behavior sure takes the shine off of sympathizing with the arrested bikers.

Yeah, maybe the cops knew what they were doing after all. Doesn't sound like a bunch of Christians professional out for a weekend ride and a gathering to discuss motorcycle safety updates.

mojo84 wrote:Yeah, maybe the cops knew what they were doing after all. Doesn't sound like a bunch of Christians professionals out for a weekend ride and a gathering to discuss motorcycle safety updates.

treadlightly wrote:Dang, reading about specific murderous behavior sure takes the shine off of sympathizing with the arrested bikers.

Of course the vast majority of the forum members knew that already. No conspiracy here folks.

I see you guys are still trying to figure it out. To me I'm just glad no innocent bystanders were injured in the may-lay. I'm glad the Police were ready and responded quickly. Everyone is trying to look pretty and claim their innocence now. Some of my friends ride and frequented Twin Peaks. They told me if they were headed there and saw what was in the parking lot they would not have stopped and went some place else. So anyone there knew who they were hanging around. No sympathy from me.

jmra wrote:

mojo84 wrote:Yeah, maybe the cops knew what they were doing after all. Doesn't sound like a bunch of Christians professionals out for a weekend ride and a gathering to discuss motorcycle safety updates.

All that information considered, I still think that a lot of people that really didn't have anything to do with the actual violence, got swept up in the arrests without any real tangible evidence of any specific offense. They were ALL charged and held under the RICO act on the basis of if they were a member of either the Bandidos or Cossacks MC's ...or....any "support clubs" affiliated with either group, then they were "engaged in ongoing organized criminal activity". That's probably fairly accurate, but when these cases start going to trial, I think 75%+ of the charges will be dismissed because the level of proof required under the RICO act is pretty strong. Just being a member of one of the groups is not sufficient. The law was passed to give the prosecutors in "mafia" cases a charge that carried severe penalties beyond a simple charge or extortion, assault, smuggling, etc....but just saying the an individual was Italian or some other ethnicity, and was known to hang out with other guys that had all been convicted of various charges was not enough. The prosecution still had to show that they had individually participated in specific crimes within a structured organization over a period time. That's where the laws allowing for wiretapping came from...because it's very difficult to meet that standard of proof without having records of planning and discussing criminal activity, and about the only other way to get it, is with undercover operatives that can testify that they HEARD certain people talking about planned criminal acts in an ongoing manner. I think they will be able to convict those that they can prove were involved in felony offenses THAT day on lesser charges and maybe some of the chapter presidents and officers that they can show issued orders for members from outlying areas to show up.