Crypto-currencies

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bbhack
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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby bbhack » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:22 pm

1911 Raptor wrote:
OldCannon wrote:
rotor wrote:It's only a profit when you sell. The question is.......... when do you sell? Still a Ponzi.


Please refute the following then, take your time, I can wait:
...
:tiphat:


Unhackable? Please.


That's appropriately skeptical. In the world today, current cryptography is not know to be breakable. But cryptography uses keys, and keys get mishandled all the time, so stealing keys is hacking, but not breaking the crypto.

Digital coin transactions are stored in ledgers that are duplicated exactly many times (millions) and stored all over the world independently. There is nothing anyone can do to corrupt or alter this ledger. Nothing. Keys associated with the transactions in the ledger can be stolen, though.


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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby rotor » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:30 pm

OldCannon wrote:
rotor wrote:It's only a profit when you sell. The question is.......... when do you sell? Still a Ponzi.


Please refute the following then, take your time, I can wait:

- There is no central benefactor, thus there is no "pyramid" structure. It is, in fact, the opposite. No single person or entity can simply run away with the money.

The central benefactor is the originator of the currency. Could be some high school kid in mom's basement.

- There is no promise of riches associated with investment. It is an investment risk just like any other currency investment, with the insurance that the originating country not propping up the currency with "quantitative easing" (a fancy word for "printing money backed by nothing")

True, no promise of riches just the implication that this currency will increase in value otherwise why would you buy it. It is not easier to spend than a plain old dollar so the implication is that it will increase in value.

- The value of the item is independent of "continuous aggregative investor" scenarios. A collapse in people buying/trading the currency does not result in a subsequent collapse of the value of the existing currency.

If you can't sell it or spend it what is it worth? Someone has to buy it so you can convert it into a usable form such as dollars or actual merchandise. If nobody will do that there is no value.

- Bitcoin (or other digital currencies) have a functional limit on quantity. Unlike national currencies.

- Ponzi scheme products cannot function as currency in any way, shape, or form

This is a Ponzi in that it requires new investors to buy in and the only way the old investors can profit is with new investors buying the old investors cryptocuurency. No new investors and the bubble bursts. You must sell your cryptocurrency to use it and profit and therefore you need a buyer. What is the intrinsic value of the coin without a buyer?

- There is technically no "bubble" upon which everything collapses. The quantity of bitcoin/litecoin/ethereum always exists in unhackable digital ledgers. The only fluctuation is based on the perceived value of the per unit item. It is, quite literally, impossible to destroy the existing currency without destroying the internet, and that's an entirely different problem.

So lets say there are 20,000 bitcoins out there and nobody wants to buy one. What are they worth?

:tiphat:

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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby AndyC » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:40 pm

I was really hoping that this thread could stir discussions in cryptos to look out for, share successes etc - I really didn't expect the non-stop negativity towards something others are enjoying.

As far as I'm concerned, you lot do what you want - if you're not involved in crypto then DON'T GET INVOLVED, but I'm really tired of all the slamming so I'm now out.
Last edited by AndyC on Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby rotor » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:41 pm

For you cryptocurrency people, tomorrow I propose we issue 20,000 gun coins and offer them at $10 each. We will trade them exactly as if they were bitcoin or one of the other phenomena. How many of you would like to get in on this one time low price offer?

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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby The Annoyed Man » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:48 pm

rotor wrote:Why is cryptocurrency a Ponzi? As noted, there are a fixed amount of coins. [There is not a fixed amount for all cryptocurrency. There is a fixed amount for Bitcoin in particular, and some others, but it is not true as a general statement that there is a fixed amount of cryptocurrency.] In and of themselves they produce no income, have no intrinsic value and you can't hold it in your hand so to speak. [Again, not true. If I cash out today, I am $504.93 richer today than the day I first jumped in 3 weeks ago - even after the slight downturn I previously mentioned this morning. I invested $1,000.00, and my cash out would give me $1,504.93. But I am not going to do that to satisfy your need for proof. I’m going to leave it in, and grow it some more.] They are not a commodity which actually has backing although who wants a ton of pork bellies in their garage? [Yes, they ARE a commodity, exactly like $$ are a commodity on fiat currency exchanges.] The only way they grow in value is if there is a buyer willing to buy in. [Not so. They bring their own intrinsic value because of the technology they represent, even before they go on sale. Stock in Apple Computers had value before the first share sold, because Jobs and Wozniak had a great idea that had value. The market will determine how that value will go up or down, but you have to understand that you’re not just engaging in just a “coin”, you’re engaged in trading on the value of whatever technology the coin brings to the market.] Without new buyers coming in the whole thing collapses. Let's say your coin is valued at $12,000 right now and you decide to sell it. What happens if there are no buyers? What is your coin worth? Nothing. [It doesn’t work that way. If I hold stock in Microsoft, and I want to sell it, I don’t have to step up to the plate and wait for a buyer.....I just sell it, and it goes back into the pool of shares available for purchase. Same with crypto. If I want to sell it, I don’t have to wait for someone to make an offer on it. I just sell it. Period.] As with Ponzi, it depends on new people coming in with the glint of riches and easy money in their eye and willing to put their money in. No new buyers and you have nothing. All of the early investors do well as long as they get out before the bubble bursts and the late investors get hosed. This is just a variation of a Ponzi. It requires the blood of new investors to make the profit for the older investors who hopefully for them get out before it collapses. So, once the feeding frenzy is over and there are no new investors (suckers as Ponzi and Madoff would call them) the bubble will burst. Ponzi schemes can go on for years so longevity means nothing. The requirement is new people willing to buy. The incentive is greed as there is no physical "commodity" that one gets. You are not putting a Colt Python in the gun safe waiting for it to increase in value. [My friend, you are about as far from understanding what is happening in the crypto market as one can be. I won’t waste any more of your time trying to put it into words that make sense to you, except to say this: EVERY objection you’ve raised can be said about ANY kind of investment there is, inside or outside of the cryptocurrency world.]
1911 Raptor wrote:
OldCannon wrote:
rotor wrote:It's only a profit when you sell. The question is.......... when do you sell? Still a Ponzi.


Please refute the following then, take your time, I can wait:

- There is no central benefactor, thus there is no "pyramid" structure. It is, in fact, the opposite. No single person or entity can simply run away with the money.

- There is no promise of riches associated with investment. It is an investment risk just like any other currency investment, with the insurance that the originating country not propping up the currency with "quantitative easing" (a fancy word for "printing money backed by nothing")

- The value of the item is independent of "continuous aggregative investor" scenarios. A collapse in people buying/trading the currency does not result in a subsequent collapse of the value of the existing currency.

- Bitcoin (or other digital currencies) have a functional limit on quantity. Unlike national currencies.

- Ponzi scheme products cannot function as currency in any way, shape, or form

- There is technically no "bubble" upon which everything collapses. The quantity of bitcoin/litecoin/ethereum always exists in unhackable digital ledgers. The only fluctuation is based on the perceived value of the per unit item. It is, quite literally, impossible to destroy the existing currency without destroying the internet, and that's an entirely different problem.

:tiphat:


Unhackable? Please.


Since there is no physical product involved what will you have when it bursts? Spot gold right now is $1316. Not $2000. But at least you can convert the gold into a ring or necklace for your significant other if it collapses. What happens to cryptocurrency if nobody wants to buy what you want to sell (or cash in)?
There is not a fixed amount for many of the coins, but it is true for Bitcoin. You’ve made a blanket statement that isn’t true, there.
Now, that doesn't mean I don't buy lottery tickets sometimes but I know I am not going to win but $5 so what, right?

Good luck my friends. Really I hope you all make a ton of money and only strangers we don't know get stuck.

OldCannon is absolutely right. It IS unhackable. What CAN be hacked is an individual’s account on an exchange, but the only thing the hackers can do is drain that user’s account.......JUST LIKE CAN HAPPEN TO YOUR BANK OF AMERICA OR [INSERT NAME OF BANK] ACCOUNT!!! Hackers may steal your funds out of your checking account, but they can’t drain Bank of America. The security of the blockchain is that is is a distributed ledger, hosted on hundreds of thousands of computers all over the world. If the ledger on ONE of those computers does not match the ledgers on all the others, it is sequestered until the data can be corrected. In order to hack the blockchain, you would have to hack into ALL of the hundreds of thousands of computers hosting the ledger, at EXACTLY the same second in time, in EXACTLY the same way, and hack the ledger in EXACTLY the same place; and it would have to happen SO fast that none of the already existing self-checking mechanisms would pick up on it. As OldCannon said, you would have to kill the entire internet to do it. It is even beyond the ability of large powerful nation states with sophisticated IT people to pull it off. That is just ONE reason why national governments are leery of crypto trading..... it is far beyond their ability to hack or control it, and they lack the means of using it as a cyber weapon against other nation states.
1911 Raptor wrote:Sounds like those in are trying to sell others to join. All we are are roses but nothing about the thorns. People say bitcoins are finite but what prevents more but coins from being created? Because someone said they wouldn’t?

Friend, I don’t care if you join or not. I think the whole purpose of this thread was to bring an opportunity to people’s attention. If they dont’ want in, it’s no skin off my nose. It literally does not affect my success (or failure) one way or the other. More Bitcoins cannot be created because it is technologically impossible to do. The number of coins was hard-coded into the Bitcoin code from day one, and that number is stored in the UNHACKABLE blockchain, so it couldn’t be changed even if they wanted to. What HAS happened is that other coins have sprouted up that use Bitcoin’s technology as the foundation for their own, but they each have their own blockchain, which is a fork off of the original Bitcoin blockchain. Similar things have happened with Etherium, where there exist other coins, with their own blockchains, but that are based on the original Etherium code.

What I would advise you to do is to actually STUDY what the blockchain is, and how it works. You can’t possibly understand what you’re criticizing if you don’t fully understand the power of a blockchain.

But at this point, I’m done. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink it.
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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby The Annoyed Man » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:50 pm

rotor wrote:For you cryptocurrency people, tomorrow I propose we issue 20,000 gun coins and offer them at $10 each. We will trade them exactly as if they were bitcoin or one of the other phenomena. How many of you would like to get in on this one time low price offer?

That’s NOT how crypto works! "rlol" :smilelol5:

OK, I’m done for realz.
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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:55 pm

AndyC wrote:I was really hoping that this thread could stir discussions in cryptos to look out for, share successes etc - I really didn't expect the non-stop negativity towards something others are enjoying.

As far as I'm concerned, you lot do what you want - if you're not involved in crypto then DON'T GET INVOLVED, but I'm really tired of all the slamming so I'm now out.


Unfortunately, that seems to be a prevalent attitude on this board. I think it is just part of human nature to think that your way is the best / only way and slam anyone who decides differently. While this sort of attitude is certainly understandable it effectively also cuts off reasonable discussion on things like open versus conceal carry, caliber, etc. Respectful disagreement is fine, but far too often I see it crossing the line to people calling other's choices "dumb", or worse, just because they choose to do something different.
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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby 1911 Raptor » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:00 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
rotor wrote:Why is cryptocurrency a Ponzi? As noted, there are a fixed amount of coins. [There is not a fixed amount for all cryptocurrency. There is a fixed amount for Bitcoin in particular, and some others, but it is not true as a general statement that there is a fixed amount of cryptocurrency.] In and of themselves they produce no income, have no intrinsic value and you can't hold it in your hand so to speak. [Again, not true. If I cash out today, I am $504.93 richer today than the day I first jumped in 3 weeks ago - even after the slight downturn I previously mentioned this morning. I invested $1,000.00, and my cash out would give me $1,504.93. But I am not going to do that to satisfy your need for proof. I’m going to leave it in, and grow it some more.] They are not a commodity which actually has backing although who wants a ton of pork bellies in their garage? [Yes, they ARE a commodity, exactly like $$ are a commodity on fiat currency exchanges.] The only way they grow in value is if there is a buyer willing to buy in. [Not so. They bring their own intrinsic value because of the technology they represent, even before they go on sale. Stock in Apple Computers had value before the first share sold, because Jobs and Wozniak had a great idea that had value. The market will determine how that value will go up or down, but you have to understand that you’re not just engaging in just a “coin”, you’re engaged in trading on the value of whatever technology the coin brings to the market.] Without new buyers coming in the whole thing collapses. Let's say your coin is valued at $12,000 right now and you decide to sell it. What happens if there are no buyers? What is your coin worth? Nothing. [It doesn’t work that way. If I hold stock in Microsoft, and I want to sell it, I don’t have to step up to the plate and wait for a buyer.....I just sell it, and it goes back into the pool of shares available for purchase. Same with crypto. If I want to sell it, I don’t have to wait for someone to make an offer on it. I just sell it. Period.] As with Ponzi, it depends on new people coming in with the glint of riches and easy money in their eye and willing to put their money in. No new buyers and you have nothing. All of the early investors do well as long as they get out before the bubble bursts and the late investors get hosed. This is just a variation of a Ponzi. It requires the blood of new investors to make the profit for the older investors who hopefully for them get out before it collapses. So, once the feeding frenzy is over and there are no new investors (suckers as Ponzi and Madoff would call them) the bubble will burst. Ponzi schemes can go on for years so longevity means nothing. The requirement is new people willing to buy. The incentive is greed as there is no physical "commodity" that one gets. You are not putting a Colt Python in the gun safe waiting for it to increase in value. [My friend, you are about as far from understanding what is happening in the crypto market as one can be. I won’t waste any more of your time trying to put it into words that make sense to you, except to say this: EVERY objection you’ve raised can be said about ANY kind of investment there is, inside or outside of the cryptocurrency world.]
1911 Raptor wrote:
OldCannon wrote:
rotor wrote:It's only a profit when you sell. The question is.......... when do you sell? Still a Ponzi.


Please refute the following then, take your time, I can wait:

- There is no central benefactor, thus there is no "pyramid" structure. It is, in fact, the opposite. No single person or entity can simply run away with the money.

- There is no promise of riches associated with investment. It is an investment risk just like any other currency investment, with the insurance that the originating country not propping up the currency with "quantitative easing" (a fancy word for "printing money backed by nothing")

- The value of the item is independent of "continuous aggregative investor" scenarios. A collapse in people buying/trading the currency does not result in a subsequent collapse of the value of the existing currency.

- Bitcoin (or other digital currencies) have a functional limit on quantity. Unlike national currencies.

- Ponzi scheme products cannot function as currency in any way, shape, or form

- There is technically no "bubble" upon which everything collapses. The quantity of bitcoin/litecoin/ethereum always exists in unhackable digital ledgers. The only fluctuation is based on the perceived value of the per unit item. It is, quite literally, impossible to destroy the existing currency without destroying the internet, and that's an entirely different problem.

:tiphat:


Unhackable? Please.


Since there is no physical product involved what will you have when it bursts? Spot gold right now is $1316. Not $2000. But at least you can convert the gold into a ring or necklace for your significant other if it collapses. What happens to cryptocurrency if nobody wants to buy what you want to sell (or cash in)?
There is not a fixed amount for many of the coins, but it is true for Bitcoin. You’ve made a blanket statement that isn’t true, there.
Now, that doesn't mean I don't buy lottery tickets sometimes but I know I am not going to win but $5 so what, right?

Good luck my friends. Really I hope you all make a ton of money and only strangers we don't know get stuck.

OldCannon is absolutely right. It IS unhackable. What CAN be hacked is an individual’s account on an exchange, but the only thing the hackers can do is drain that user’s account.......JUST LIKE CAN HAPPEN TO YOUR BANK OF AMERICA OR [INSERT NAME OF BANK] ACCOUNT!!! Hackers may steal your funds out of your checking account, but they can’t drain Bank of America. The security of the blockchain is that is is a distributed ledger, hosted on hundreds of thousands of computers all over the world. If the ledger on ONE of those computers does not match the ledgers on all the others, it is sequestered until the data can be corrected. In order to hack the blockchain, you would have to hack into ALL of the hundreds of thousands of computers hosting the ledger, at EXACTLY the same second in time, in EXACTLY the same way, and hack the ledger in EXACTLY the same place; and it would have to happen SO fast that none of the already existing self-checking mechanisms would pick up on it. As OldCannon said, you would have to kill the entire internet to do it. It is even beyond the ability of large powerful nation states with sophisticated IT people to pull it off. That is just ONE reason why national governments are leery of crypto trading..... it is far beyond their ability to hack or control it, and they lack the means of using it as a cyber weapon against other nation states.
1911 Raptor wrote:Sounds like those in are trying to sell others to join. All we are are roses but nothing about the thorns. People say bitcoins are finite but what prevents more but coins from being created? Because someone said they wouldn’t?

Friend, I don’t care if you join or not. I think the whole purpose of this thread was to bring an opportunity to people’s attention. If they dont’ want in, it’s no skin off my nose. It literally does not affect my success (or failure) one way or the other. More Bitcoins cannot be created because it is technologically impossible to do. The number of coins was hard-coded into the Bitcoin code from day one, and that number is stored in the UNHACKABLE blockchain, so it couldn’t be changed even if they wanted to. What HAS happened is that other coins have sprouted up that use Bitcoin’s technology as the foundation for their own, but they each have their own blockchain, which is a fork off of the original Bitcoin blockchain. Similar things have happened with Etherium, where there exist other coins, with their own blockchains, but that are based on the original Etherium code.

What I would advise you to do is to actually STUDY what the blockchain is, and how it works. You can’t possibly understand what you’re criticizing if you don’t fully understand the power of a blockchain.

But at this point, I’m done. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink it.


History is lined with failures of UNHACKABLE claims. I am against using terms that just aren’t sustainable. If man made it it can be broken and that has been proven over and over again. Man is fallable which means anything he creates is fallable. How long it takes to expose the vulnerabilities well that is anyone’s guess but the vulnerabilities do exist since man is fallable.

My bank accounts are protected and insured and I have recourse if they are hacked or stolen. I have had a debit card compromised and my account emptied but guess what it was replaced once I filed. Can you say the same about crypto currency accounts?

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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby OldCannon » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:03 pm

1911 Raptor wrote:
My bank accounts are protected and insured


You might want to rethink that statement once you understand how your money is "insured" by the FDIC.

Short version: You're going to be mighty disappointed if you think you're gonna get your money back.
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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby 92f-fan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:07 pm

I lost interest when I realized buying in and selling are both strictly limited ...
Lets assume you mined a seemingly small number of coins back in the say. Lets say 10 - worth approximately $100k now
How do you get your $100k out ?
In less than 100 transactions ?
Go ...


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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:13 pm

1911 Raptor wrote:History is lined with failures of UNHACKABLE claims. I am against using terms that just aren’t sustainable. If man made it it can be broken and that has been proven over and over again. Man is fallable which means anything he creates is fallable. How long it takes to expose the vulnerabilities well that is anyone’s guess but the vulnerabilities do exist since man is fallable.

My bank accounts are protected and insured and I have recourse if they are hacked or stolen. I have had a debit card compromised and my account emptied but guess what it was replaced once I filed. Can you say the same about crypto currency accounts?


Your bank account insurance was designed by man, and not God, correct? If so, then your statement does not pass the logic test.
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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby Liberty » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:33 pm

92f-fan wrote:I lost interest when I realized buying in and selling are both strictly limited ...
Lets assume you mined a seemingly small number of coins back in the say. Lets say 10 - worth approximately $100k now
How do you get your $100k out ?
In less than 100 transactions ?
Go ...

There is a couple of ways:

you can go online and purchase a commodity, like precious metals when the commodity arrives go and sell it to a Pawnbroker or other retail local metals dealer.

You can set up an exchange account through a local bank. sell your Crypto, then wire it into your bank. This is the cheapest fastest way. But a few more steps than buying receiving and selling a commodity.

It's really not that complicated.
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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby bbhack » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:38 pm

92f-fan wrote:I lost interest when I realized buying in and selling are both strictly limited ...
Lets assume you mined a seemingly small number of coins back in the say. Lets say 10 - worth approximately $100k now
How do you get your $100k out ?
In less than 100 transactions ?
Go ...


Is this a real question? You open a Coinbase account, send the coins to your online wallet, sell them for USD, and send the USD to a bank account via ACH. That's all. What difference how many transactions? But I think you could do this in one move.

Getting your accounts set up at the moment is going to be slow, because everything "digital coin" is swamped.


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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby 1911 Raptor » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:52 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
1911 Raptor wrote:History is lined with failures of UNHACKABLE claims. I am against using terms that just aren’t sustainable. If man made it it can be broken and that has been proven over and over again. Man is fallable which means anything he creates is fallable. How long it takes to expose the vulnerabilities well that is anyone’s guess but the vulnerabilities do exist since man is fallable.

My bank accounts are protected and insured and I have recourse if they are hacked or stolen. I have had a debit card compromised and my account emptied but guess what it was replaced once I filed. Can you say the same about crypto currency accounts?


Your bank account insurance was designed by man, and not God, correct? If so, then your statement does not pass the logic test.


Show me where I said bank accounts were infallable or unhackable like is being used for crypto currency. The fact remains I had money stolen from a bank account and I had recourse to have it replaced and it was replaced. Can anyone say the same recourse exists for crypto currency?


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Re: Crypto-currencies

Postby rotor » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:53 pm

TAM
You are a very wise man but if you own Microsoft and want to sell it there has to be someone that will buy it. One can wallpaper many walls with stock certificates that have no value. I have many of them in my possession. My broker always got his commission though.

I sincerely hope that people on this forum make a ton of money on their investments. I am not claiming that anyone here is stupid and wish you all the best on investments and profits.

I can not comment on hacking especially since we know there is a major defect in Intel chips that may allow hackers to steal everyone's passwords for everything. Very frightening.


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