The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

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GeekwithaGun
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The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby GeekwithaGun » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:28 am

The mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Frankie McRae

http://www.breachbangclear.com/the-mind ... ksmanship/


Found this article really interesting and timely. One statement stood out due to the recent reports on the forum.
CMMS begins with a mindset that the shooter is going into a combat situation. When a boxer enters the ring, he expects to be hit. When a person has taken on the responsibility to protect himself or others, he has to assume that once the fight is on, it is to be to the end. It may end peacefully. Posturing may actually work. Studies show that a gun presented by a victim actually keeps the assailant at bay or runs him away many times. The mental decision of the “victim” to refuse to be a victim was the first action completed to save his life. That decision was made as soon as that person decided to arm himself. The correct mindset for the “combat” situation starts with preparedness.
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montgomery
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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby montgomery » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:48 am

... presenting a firearm in and of itself is not a tactic. I run into alot of folks that think presenting a firearm will runoff the bad guys. Presuming the situation meets the legal requirements for deadly force for self-defense, then one must have the mindset to stop the threat by taking lives to save lives. I know way too many people licensed to carry that do not have the mindset or the tactics to engage a threat, yet think brandishing a firearm is going to get the job done. Decent article. Biggest takeaway is have a plan, including when the pastor asks if you are carrying. Thanks for posting the link.
Last edited by montgomery on Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby Pariah3j » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:09 am

montgomery wrote:... presenting a firearm in and of itself is not a tactic. I run into alot of folks that think presenting a firearm will runoff the bad guys. Presuming the situation meets the legal requirements for deadly force for self-defense, then one must have the mindset to stop the threat by taking lives to save lives. I know way too many people licensed to carry that do not have the mindset or the tactics to engage a threat, yet think brandishing a firearm is going to get the job done. Decent article. Biggest takeaway is have a plan, including when the pastor asks if you are carrying. Thanks for posting the link.


I disagree that presenting a firearm 'isn't be a tactic', it just needs to be used at the correct time, in the correct way. Expecting it to be the only tactic you'll ever need would be a fallacy.

I do agree though that if you are carrying then you must prepare to or have the mindset that you carry it in order to engage and end threats to yourself and others.

(edited - realized I meant to say can't or isn't, not can)
Last edited by Pariah3j on Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby flechero » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:11 am

When a person has taken on the responsibility to protect himself or others, he has to assume that once the fight is on, it is to be to the end.


I think too few people understand that.

The hardest part for many can be accepting that you very well may be shot and/or killed in the act of SD of self and others. When people first get a LTC, they have to [realize and then] come to grips with the fact that the gun is not a suit of armor and even though they have a gun to fight back with- that in no way guarantees they still won't be shot or killed. It only provides them an opportunity, assuming a number of other things go right.


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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby montgomery » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:56 am

flechero wrote:
When a person has taken on the responsibility to protect himself or others, he has to assume that once the fight is on, it is to be to the end.


I think too few people understand that.

The hardest part for many can be accepting that you very well may be shot and/or killed in the act of SD of self and others. When people first get a LTC, they have to [realize and then] come to grips with the fact that the gun is not a suit of armor and even though they have a gun to fight back with- that in no way guarantees they still won't be shot or killed. It only provides them an opportunity, assuming a number of other things go right.


Amen brother ... y'all got it right. And shot or killed not only by "the bad guy" but also by responding law enforcement or other LTC with good intentions.

Which brings up an interesting point: in public, bad guy with bad intentions and LTC draws with good intentions and I am in the line of fire, I have no idea if these two are working together or not. If the LTC does not comply with my command to drop the firearm, and the muzzle is moving in my direction, that LTC is getting shot.

We are not talking combat marksmanship; we are talking combat mindset - and like the article said, a boxer expects to get hit.

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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby Middle Age Russ » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:35 am

I pray that I am never forced to draw my sidearm to deal with a threat because such situations are fraught with the risk that I or a loved one will be harmed or killed. I pray also that if my fate is to meet a threat with a drawn sidearm my actions will be sufficient to minimize any damage that might be caused by the threat. I train body and mind for the latter because I am not in complete control of the world around me.
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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby oljames3 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:22 pm

After 30+ years, I retired from the Army in 2012. I am still adjusting to living among civilians 24/7. ;-)

I often remind myself that most folks haven't been trained to kill. It only takes our military a few weeks to inculcate in our warriors the willingness to kill. Trained to kill, yes, but only while subject to strict authority. Most folks do not go through this.

Those of us who have chosen to carry a self-defense handgun must be ready, mentally, physically, and psychologically, to actually use it. This takes understanding and training. We should also be prepared to deal with the consequences.

LTC Dave Grossman (Ret) has written two books which deal with these subjects: On Killing and On Combat.
https://www.killology.com/publications

In 2015, John Daub, of KR Training http://krtraining.com near Austin, used his handgun to defend himself and his family. Massad Ayoob interviewed John for "American Handgunner".
https://americanhandgunner.com/home-invader-the-john-daub-incident/

Just as we diligently train to use or self-defense tool, we should also train and prepare for the act and consequences of actually using that tool in defense of ourselves and/or others.
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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby apostate » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:57 pm

montgomery wrote:We are not talking combat marksmanship; we are talking combat mindset

:iagree: The combat mindset is 1/3 of the holy trinity, along with marksmanship and gun handling.

That said, presenting a firearm is an appropriate tactical response in some scenarios. While we should be prepared to shoot when we draw, it is not always the ideal next step.
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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:22 pm

apostate wrote:
montgomery wrote:We are not talking combat marksmanship; we are talking combat mindset

:iagree: The combat mindset is 1/3 of the holy trinity, along with marksmanship and gun handling.

That said, presenting a firearm is an appropriate tactical response in some scenarios. While we should be prepared to shoot when we draw, it is not always the ideal next step.


:iagree: Saying that the presentation of a firearm "isn't a tactic" in a SD scenario is like saying that locking your doors isn't a step to prevent burglary. It is one of many things that might stop the threat, but it may well not be enough, in and of itself, to do so.
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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby canvasbck » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:42 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
apostate wrote:
montgomery wrote:We are not talking combat marksmanship; we are talking combat mindset

:iagree: The combat mindset is 1/3 of the holy trinity, along with marksmanship and gun handling.

That said, presenting a firearm is an appropriate tactical response in some scenarios. While we should be prepared to shoot when we draw, it is not always the ideal next step.


:iagree: Saying that the presentation of a firearm "isn't a tactic" in a SD scenario is like saying that locking your doors isn't a step to prevent burglary. It is one of many things that might stop the threat, but it may well not be enough, in and of itself, to do so.


This all depends on the definition of "presenting a firearm". If my gun clears the holster, it's going to go bang less than a second later. My draw to fire with hands relaxed at side and wearing a concealment garment is about 1.3 seconds. If my hand is already on the weapon, it's less than a second. BGs aren't going to run away in that time.

However, if I'm feeling threatened but am not yet in (imminent) fear for my life, I could see a situation where I clear the concealment garment (if CC) and place my hand on the grip. This is the BG's last opportunity to change his mind.The gun will not come out of the holster until it is time to use it.
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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:58 pm

canvasbck wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:
apostate wrote:
montgomery wrote:We are not talking combat marksmanship; we are talking combat mindset

:iagree: The combat mindset is 1/3 of the holy trinity, along with marksmanship and gun handling.

That said, presenting a firearm is an appropriate tactical response in some scenarios. While we should be prepared to shoot when we draw, it is not always the ideal next step.


:iagree: Saying that the presentation of a firearm "isn't a tactic" in a SD scenario is like saying that locking your doors isn't a step to prevent burglary. It is one of many things that might stop the threat, but it may well not be enough, in and of itself, to do so.


This all depends on the definition of "presenting a firearm". If my gun clears the holster, it's going to go bang less than a second later. My draw to fire with hands relaxed at side and wearing a concealment garment is about 1.3 seconds. If my hand is already on the weapon, it's less than a second. BGs aren't going to run away in that time.

However, if I'm feeling threatened but am not yet in (imminent) fear for my life, I could see a situation where I clear the concealment garment (if CC) and place my hand on the grip. This is the BG's last opportunity to change his mind.The gun will not come out of the holster until it is time to use it.


I think it is situation dependent, but there are scenarios I could envision where a BG might see my weapon while I still have an opportunity to switch to "plan B" and not actually fire. Consider the possibility of waking up to a bump in the night, grabbing your bedside gun and going to investigate. In my home, there is a possibility that the sound came from my teenage kids sneaking in / out, or making a ruckus while getting a midnight snack. So I will have my gun in hand, at low ready, as I check for the source of the noise. If I turn a corner and a BG is 15 yards from me (approx. distance to my front and back doors as I clear the short hallway by my bedroom), that BG might turn and run back out the door upon seeing my gun and I might be able to mentally switch plans and not shoot him. In other words, by the time I complete my identification of the person as a foe and not a friend, they might also see my gun and make it clear that they are no longer a threat. I am prepared for that possibility. I am also prepared for the possibility that they may continue to be a threat, in which case, plan A stays on course and deadly force is regrettably needed.
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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby canvasbck » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:41 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
canvasbck wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:
apostate wrote:
montgomery wrote:We are not talking combat marksmanship; we are talking combat mindset

:iagree: The combat mindset is 1/3 of the holy trinity, along with marksmanship and gun handling.

That said, presenting a firearm is an appropriate tactical response in some scenarios. While we should be prepared to shoot when we draw, it is not always the ideal next step.


:iagree: Saying that the presentation of a firearm "isn't a tactic" in a SD scenario is like saying that locking your doors isn't a step to prevent burglary. It is one of many things that might stop the threat, but it may well not be enough, in and of itself, to do so.


This all depends on the definition of "presenting a firearm". If my gun clears the holster, it's going to go bang less than a second later. My draw to fire with hands relaxed at side and wearing a concealment garment is about 1.3 seconds. If my hand is already on the weapon, it's less than a second. BGs aren't going to run away in that time.

However, if I'm feeling threatened but am not yet in (imminent) fear for my life, I could see a situation where I clear the concealment garment (if CC) and place my hand on the grip. This is the BG's last opportunity to change his mind.The gun will not come out of the holster until it is time to use it.


I think it is situation dependent, but there are scenarios I could envision where a BG might see my weapon while I still have an opportunity to switch to "plan B" and not actually fire. Consider the possibility of waking up to a bump in the night, grabbing your bedside gun and going to investigate. In my home, there is a possibility that the sound came from my teenage kids sneaking in / out, or making a ruckus while getting a midnight snack. So I will have my gun in hand, at low ready, as I check for the source of the noise. If I turn a corner and a BG is 15 yards from me (approx. distance to my front and back doors as I clear the short hallway by my bedroom), that BG might turn and run back out the door upon seeing my gun and I might be able to mentally switch plans and not shoot him. In other words, by the time I complete my identification of the person as a foe and not a friend, they might also see my gun and make it clear that they are no longer a threat. I am prepared for that possibility. I am also prepared for the possibility that they may continue to be a threat, in which case, plan A stays on course and deadly force is regrettably needed.


I don't disagree, I was only referring to instances in the public where my firearm is in a holster.

Also, just to throw this out there. There are some who plan on presenting a firearm as a deterrent who do not think that OC is a deterrent (not saying you). Oh the irony.
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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:07 pm

canvasbck wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:
canvasbck wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:
apostate wrote:
montgomery wrote:We are not talking combat marksmanship; we are talking combat mindset

:iagree: The combat mindset is 1/3 of the holy trinity, along with marksmanship and gun handling.

That said, presenting a firearm is an appropriate tactical response in some scenarios. While we should be prepared to shoot when we draw, it is not always the ideal next step.


:iagree: Saying that the presentation of a firearm "isn't a tactic" in a SD scenario is like saying that locking your doors isn't a step to prevent burglary. It is one of many things that might stop the threat, but it may well not be enough, in and of itself, to do so.


This all depends on the definition of "presenting a firearm". If my gun clears the holster, it's going to go bang less than a second later. My draw to fire with hands relaxed at side and wearing a concealment garment is about 1.3 seconds. If my hand is already on the weapon, it's less than a second. BGs aren't going to run away in that time.

However, if I'm feeling threatened but am not yet in (imminent) fear for my life, I could see a situation where I clear the concealment garment (if CC) and place my hand on the grip. This is the BG's last opportunity to change his mind.The gun will not come out of the holster until it is time to use it.


I think it is situation dependent, but there are scenarios I could envision where a BG might see my weapon while I still have an opportunity to switch to "plan B" and not actually fire. Consider the possibility of waking up to a bump in the night, grabbing your bedside gun and going to investigate. In my home, there is a possibility that the sound came from my teenage kids sneaking in / out, or making a ruckus while getting a midnight snack. So I will have my gun in hand, at low ready, as I check for the source of the noise. If I turn a corner and a BG is 15 yards from me (approx. distance to my front and back doors as I clear the short hallway by my bedroom), that BG might turn and run back out the door upon seeing my gun and I might be able to mentally switch plans and not shoot him. In other words, by the time I complete my identification of the person as a foe and not a friend, they might also see my gun and make it clear that they are no longer a threat. I am prepared for that possibility. I am also prepared for the possibility that they may continue to be a threat, in which case, plan A stays on course and deadly force is regrettably needed.


I don't disagree, I was only referring to instances in the public where my firearm is in a holster.

Also, just to throw this out there. There are some who plan on presenting a firearm as a deterrent who do not think that OC is a deterrent (not saying you). Oh the irony.


I agree that last part is a bit of an interesting contradiction. Personally I think that yes, OC may make you the "first target" and yes OC may help a BG to decide that there are easier targets elsewhere. It's really just a matter of how much weight we put on each of those factors. Personally, I OC when my only other option is to pocket carry given my required work attire. Other than that, I generally CC.
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montgomery
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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby montgomery » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:16 pm

To clarify: my exact statement in my original post was "presenting a firearm IN AND OF ITSELF is not a tactic". What I meant is presenting alone - whether holstered or drawn - ALONE is not a self-defense tactic.


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Re: The Mindset of Combat Marksmanship

Postby Mike Roch » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:59 pm

montgomery wrote:To clarify: my exact statement in my original post was "presenting a firearm IN AND OF ITSELF is not a tactic". What I meant is presenting alone - whether holstered or drawn - ALONE is not a self-defense tactic.

Have you read this? viewtopic.php?f=136&t=90168#p1168830


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