Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

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cedarparkdad987
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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby cedarparkdad987 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:50 pm

:cheers2: No problem.


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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby BBYC » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:50 pm

labrat1001001 wrote:I believe the below statements to be true. If not, please educate me.

a) If you are contacted by a LEO as a vehicle passenger and are carrying a handgun (with a valid Texas handgun license), whether it is concealed or openly carried, you do not, by law, have to produce your driver’s license or Texas handgun license unless you are suspected of a crime.

b) If you are contacting by a LEO while walking down the street, in a coffee shop, etc. and are carrying a handgun (with a valid Texas handgun license), whether it is concealed or openly carried, you do not, by law, have to produce your driver’s license or Texas handgun license unless you are suspected of a crime.

If you are carrying a handgun, Texas law requires you to show your LTC and ID (but I thought LTC was legal ID in Texas, all by itself) to a peace officer of magistrate who asks for ID.
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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby twomillenium » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:54 pm

In many decades of driving I have only been asked 4 times if an LEO "minded if he searched the vehicle". 3 times I politely said, "no, I do not mind if he does not mind me requiring a search warrant", only once did the LEO (on the streets for less than two months) said, "why would you mind if you have nothing to hide?". I replied "It is people like me that require the Constitution be upheld and a strong Constitution helps protects all of us from abuse of power." I continued this very politely when he asked, "Do you think I am abusing my power as an Officer of the Law?" I tried to keep my smile and said, "Only if you as a servant of law abiding citizens, try to search without due cause or a warrant to do so." He handed me my ID and told me I am free to go (no ticket) but insisted that he "could come up with a cause if he needed to." I smiled and told him, "I appreciate your work and you just made a good career decision." He sort of smiled and smirked while waving my on my way.

The other time, I allowed the search because I knew (because of AM radio) I was in an area that had been quardened off and they were looking for a fugitive. He only wanted to look in areas big enough for a person to hide. (in the back of my covered truck bed)
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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby labrat1001001 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:15 pm

BBYC wrote:
labrat1001001 wrote:I believe the below statements to be true. If not, please educate me.

a) If you are contacted by a LEO as a vehicle passenger and are carrying a handgun (with a valid Texas handgun license), whether it is concealed or openly carried, you do not, by law, have to produce your driver’s license or Texas handgun license unless you are suspected of a crime.

b) If you are contacting by a LEO while walking down the street, in a coffee shop, etc. and are carrying a handgun (with a valid Texas handgun license), whether it is concealed or openly carried, you do not, by law, have to produce your driver’s license or Texas handgun license unless you are suspected of a crime.

If you are carrying a handgun, Texas law requires you to show your LTC and ID (but I thought LTC was legal ID in Texas, all by itself) to a peace officer of magistrate who asks for ID.


Which statute states this?
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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby Pariah3j » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:18 pm

I use to consent to searches under the mentality that 'I've done nothing wrong, and got nothing to hide'... Then one night way back in the days of dial up internet, me and a couple of friends were going to have a LAN party to play some computer games. Got stopped for a nothing-burger traffic stop(He said I failed to signal when turning left into the parking lot, which wasn't true). Not thinking much of it, I consented to the search, and when I popped my trunk, I instantly regretted it. 3 high-end gaming computer, 3 flat screen CRT monitors, cables, power strips, the works all in the trunk of my car. That cop kept us there for at least an hour while he took the 3 of us off to the side and interviewed us separately, multiple times. I guess he was trying to find an inconsistency in our stories or a good reason to arrest us. He just couldn't conceive of the idea that you would go through all of that trouble to play video games. Since then I've always politely declined and suggested they would need a warrant.
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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:40 pm

labrat1001001 wrote:
BBYC wrote:
labrat1001001 wrote:I believe the below statements to be true. If not, please educate me.

a) If you are contacted by a LEO as a vehicle passenger and are carrying a handgun (with a valid Texas handgun license), whether it is concealed or openly carried, you do not, by law, have to produce your driver’s license or Texas handgun license unless you are suspected of a crime.

b) If you are contacting by a LEO while walking down the street, in a coffee shop, etc. and are carrying a handgun (with a valid Texas handgun license), whether it is concealed or openly carried, you do not, by law, have to produce your driver’s license or Texas handgun license unless you are suspected of a crime.

If you are carrying a handgun, Texas law requires you to show your LTC and ID (but I thought LTC was legal ID in Texas, all by itself) to a peace officer of magistrate who asks for ID.


Which statute states this?


Do you even have to have a DL to qualify for a LTC?
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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby Flightmare » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:48 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
labrat1001001 wrote:
BBYC wrote:
labrat1001001 wrote:I believe the below statements to be true. If not, please educate me.

a) If you are contacted by a LEO as a vehicle passenger and are carrying a handgun (with a valid Texas handgun license), whether it is concealed or openly carried, you do not, by law, have to produce your driver’s license or Texas handgun license unless you are suspected of a crime.

b) If you are contacting by a LEO while walking down the street, in a coffee shop, etc. and are carrying a handgun (with a valid Texas handgun license), whether it is concealed or openly carried, you do not, by law, have to produce your driver’s license or Texas handgun license unless you are suspected of a crime.

If you are carrying a handgun, Texas law requires you to show your LTC and ID (but I thought LTC was legal ID in Texas, all by itself) to a peace officer of magistrate who asks for ID.


Which statute states this?


Do you even have to have a DL to qualify for a LTC?


DL? no. A friend of mine has a state ID but no DL and was able to get his LTC.
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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby RPBrown » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:27 pm

Going to turn the table for a second.
Driver is pulled over for any infraction. Officer comes up and says I'm Officer LEO from Noname Police Department. The reason for the stop is you failed to do whatever. Are there and weapons in the car?

Now, said driver is unaware that you as a passenger has a LTC much less has a gun on your person and answers no. Officer LEO asks driver if he can search the vehicle and he answers sure, I've got nothing to hide. He proceeds to pull everyone out of the vehicle and in doing so, sees your gun which you are lawfully OCing. Now, he did not ask you for ID nor did he ask anyone else if there were weapons in the vehicle. So now, lets for grins say he is a rookie and has you at gun point for having a weapon and not letting you speak because he is trying to get back up there because there is a MWAG.
Do you:
(A) keep trying to tell him you have a LTC
(B) wait until his back up arrives and hope the rookie doesn't get too nervous
(C) Just let it play out until someone finally asks for ID

Or, do you inform the LEO at the time of the initial question that you have a LTC and are lawfully carrying?

I could see this happening and going wrong in so many ways
Last edited by RPBrown on Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby G40yes » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:13 pm

RPBrown said,
... proceeds to pull everyone out of the vehicle and in doing so, sees your gun which you are lawfully OCing. Now, he did not ask you for ID nor did he ask anyone else if there were weapons in the vehicle. So now, lets for grins say he is a rookie and has you at gun point for having a weapon and not letting you speak because he is trying to get back up there because there is a MWAG.
Do you:
(A) keep trying to tell him you have a LTC
(B) wait until his back up arrives and hope the rookie doesn't get too nervous
(C) Just let it play out until someone finally asks for ID

My first thought is B) to remain silent (and cooperating) until spoken to about the OC. Don't want to make anything worse by volunteering information he doesn't want at the moment. Would love to hear from those with LEO experience.
.. tyrants accomplish their purposes ...by disarming the people, and making it an offense to keep arms. - Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, 1840


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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:30 pm

RPBrown wrote:Going to turn the table for a second.
Driver is pulled over for any infraction. Officer comes up and says I'm Officer LEO from Noname Police Department. The reason for the stop is you failed to do whatever. Are there and weapons in the car?

Now, said driver is unaware that you as a passenger has a LTC much less has a gun on your person and answers no. Officer LEO asks driver if he can search the vehicle and he answers sure, I've got nothing to hide. He proceeds to pull everyone out of the vehicle and in doing so, sees your gun which you are lawfully OCing. Now, he did not ask you for ID nor did he ask anyone else if there were weapons in the vehicle. So now, lets for grins say he is a rookie and has you at gun point for having a weapon and not letting you speak because he is trying to get back up there because there is a MWAG.
Do you:
(A) keep trying to tell him you have a LTC
(B) wait until his back up arrives and hope the rookie doesn't get too nervous
(C) Just let it play out until someone finally asks for ID

Or, do you inform the LEO at the time of the initial question that you have a LTC and are lawfully carrying?

I could see this happening and going wrong in so many ways


If the driver is so oblivious that he doesn't notice that I am OC'ing, then I wonder about his ability to safely operate the vehicle. But maybe he is an Uber driver who doesn't know me and I am carrying SOB such that he never got a glimpse of my gun?

Given the facts as stated, I would do the same thing that I would do anytime a LEO has a gun pointed at me. Listen very carefully to his commands and do my best to comply without making any sudden moves. Hopefully he orders me to lay flat on the ground with my arms out to my sides instead of telling me something stupid like "drop the gun". Since it is just one LEO in this hypothetical, at least the chance of me getting conflicting commands is greatly reduced.

If the LEO asks to see my ID, I make sure to tell him very clearly that my wallet is in my back pocket and my hand will have to pass over my firearm to get it. Then I ask him again to make doubly sure he understands exactly what I am doing.
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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby cedarparkdad987 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:58 pm

RPBrown wrote:Going to turn the table for a second.
Driver is pulled over for any infraction. Officer comes up and says I'm Officer LEO from Noname Police Department. The reason for the stop is you failed to do whatever. Are there and weapons in the car?

Now, said driver is unaware that you as a passenger has a LTC much less has a gun on your person and answers no. Officer LEO asks driver if he can search the vehicle and he answers sure, I've got nothing to hide. He proceeds to pull everyone out of the vehicle and in doing so, sees your gun which you are lawfully OCing. Now, he did not ask you for ID nor did he ask anyone else if there were weapons in the vehicle. So now, lets for grins say he is a rookie and has you at gun point for having a weapon and not letting you speak because he is trying to get back up there because there is a MWAG.
Do you:
(A) keep trying to tell him you have a LTC
(B) wait until his back up arrives and hope the rookie doesn't get too nervous
(C) Just let it play out until someone finally asks for ID

Or, do you inform the LEO at the time of the initial question that you have a LTC and are lawfully carrying?

I could see this happening and going wrong in so many ways


In light of the current environment, I'm generally allergic to anyone drawing a gun on me.


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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby RicoTX » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:58 pm

The sad reality is there are almost zero repercussions for a LEO who abuses power. Zero. I had an issue in 2016 regarding illegally posted city owned park property. I knew the law, LEO did not, nor did he care at the moment. I seriously considered seeing if he would illegally arrest me...which I would consider official oppression. I did not..but followed up with a letter to Chief and Mayor. Never heard a word until someone sent me a link to a newspaper article about it. No personal phone call, no personal letter. They don't care. I have no doubt they don't care about other things like the law about id requests.

I don't know the answer, but until someone either has enough money or enough courage to make it personal to the leo involved, nothing will change. I decided against it at the time...but admit that if none of us ever stand up for rights, they will go away. Yes it was a small issue, but the LEO was wrong...and would not admit it. Next time I think I will find the courage to say enough is enough. And yes, if I get illegally arrested, that LEO is going to pay...at a minimum their job...if the system fails, I've had enough. They should be held to the same standard we are.
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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby treadlightly » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:10 pm

labrat1001001 wrote:
BBYC wrote:
labrat1001001 wrote:I believe the below statements to be true. If not, please educate me.

a) If you are contacted by a LEO as a vehicle passenger and are carrying a handgun (with a valid Texas handgun license), whether it is concealed or openly carried, you do not, by law, have to produce your driver’s license or Texas handgun license unless you are suspected of a crime.

b) If you are contacting by a LEO while walking down the street, in a coffee shop, etc. and are carrying a handgun (with a valid Texas handgun license), whether it is concealed or openly carried, you do not, by law, have to produce your driver’s license or Texas handgun license unless you are suspected of a crime.

If you are carrying a handgun, Texas law requires you to show your LTC and ID (but I thought LTC was legal ID in Texas, all by itself) to a peace officer of magistrate who asks for ID.


Which statute states this?


GC 411.205. For clarification, see LTC16 Page 31.


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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby rotor » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:28 pm

RicoTX wrote:The sad reality is there are almost zero repercussions for a LEO who abuses power. Zero. I had an issue in 2016 regarding illegally posted city owned park property. I knew the law, LEO did not, nor did he care at the moment. I seriously considered seeing if he would illegally arrest me...which I would consider official oppression. I did not..but followed up with a letter to Chief and Mayor. Never heard a word until someone sent me a link to a newspaper article about it. No personal phone call, no personal letter. They don't care. I have no doubt they don't care about other things like the law about id requests.

I don't know the answer, but until someone either has enough money or enough courage to make it personal to the leo involved, nothing will change. I decided against it at the time...but admit that if none of us ever stand up for rights, they will go away. Yes it was a small issue, but the LEO was wrong...and would not admit it. Next time I think I will find the courage to say enough is enough. And yes, if I get illegally arrested, that LEO is going to pay...at a minimum their job...if the system fails, I've had enough. They should be held to the same standard we are.

I have found that when the problem is with city related issues an email or call to the city manager gets the problem solved fast. I have not had to deal with a county related problem but I would probably go with the County Judge. My Chief of Police has always responded rapidly when I have emailed him a question such as "Is it legal for me to carry a **** "? My local Sheriff has failed to respond to emails but I still vote for him because he is a strong 2ndA guy. I guess it all depends on where you live. I don't place much in letters and even letters to the editor are only read by a limited few who even read newspapers. One place to zing them is Facebook. They all care about public postings.


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Re: Questions About LEO's Asking For ID's When I'm Simply Passenger

Postby dlh » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:17 pm

LeonCarr wrote:So the only time you can have a witness to a criminal offense is on a traffic stop?

38.02(b)(3) does not differentiate between a traffic stop and a "house stop".

Just my .02,
LeonCarr


I think Leon is right about this.

The "simply passenger" may not be so simple after all. If you are a front-seat passenger and the officer suspects the driver of DWI then...guess what...yep..the witness requirement could be triggered. Same for speeding--depending on the circumstances.

And of course we can think of hypotheticals where the person answering the door would be a witness too.

I enjoy playing the questions game with the officers on the rare occasion I am stopped. I understand I need not answer many of their questions but I do anyway to show I am a "good guy" with nothing to hide. There are officers who will say well he passed the attitude test so I did not write him a citation.....and yes, there are officers who would write a citation anyway.

A few years back the Highway Patrol stopped me because he did not like the way I passed another vehicle. I truthfully answered all of his questions and he sent me on my way--no citation--did not even ask to see my driver's license. Maybe it was because when I rolled my window down he did not smell anything suspicious....There are officers out there "fishing" whether they admit it or not.

And, like Leon said, just my two cents too.


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