Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

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Pilgrim
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Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#1

Post by Pilgrim »

I think we need a gold standard to live by.
I would hope that a good citizen would engage a bad guy with a gun if my wife, daughter, or son were there and the police were not. I can only hope God would give me the grace and courage to do the same.

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Pilgrim
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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#2

Post by Pilgrim »

In case this post seems to come out of no where. It is in response to recents posts about what people would do or their motives.

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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#3

Post by RicoTX »

Pilgrim wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 9:21 pm I think we need a gold standard to live by.
I would hope that a good citizen would engage a bad guy with a gun if my wife, daughter, or son were there and the police were not. I can only hope God would give me the grace and courage to do the same.
I'm not married and have no kids, so I've got no immediate family depending on me... but I think it's only prudent that for some people they also have to think of getting home to their family. But yeah...I agree I would do what I could for your wife and kids... and anyone else's for that matter.
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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#4

Post by Jeff B. »

I think there are many folks that strive to live by the Golden Rule, even if we sometimes fall short.

A corollary could be;
Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Stand brave and upright, that the Lord may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it means your death. Protect the helpless and do no wrong.
BTW, that's the Knights Templar code.

Jeff B.
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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#5

Post by RoyGBiv »

Pilgrim wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 9:21 pm I think we need a gold standard to live by.
I would hope that a good citizen would engage a bad guy with a gun if my wife, daughter, or son were there and the police were not. I can only hope God would give me the grace and courage to do the same.
Perhaps your wife could carry a gun and protect herself and your children as well.?
Why risk leaving self protection to strangers or uncertainty?
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#6

Post by The Annoyed Man »

RoyGBiv wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 7:22 am
Pilgrim wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 9:21 pm I think we need a gold standard to live by.
I would hope that a good citizen would engage a bad guy with a gun if my wife, daughter, or son were there and the police were not. I can only hope God would give me the grace and courage to do the same.
Perhaps your wife could carry a gun and protect herself and your children as well.?
Why risk leaving self protection to strangers or uncertainty?
That right there is a big step in the right direction. I had my first CHL less than a year before I convinced my wife to take the class, and she’s been armed ever since. As soon as my son was of age, I gave both him and his fiancé (now his wife) their first CHL class as a Christmas present. I realize that not everyone can afford to do that, but if you can, there’s a great deal of peace of mind that comes with knowing that your loved ones have the same ability to protect themselves that you have, for when you’re not able to be there.

My other comment, and this is specifically in answer to the OP’s statement: “ I would hope that a good citizen would engage a bad guy with a gun if my wife, daughter, or son were there and the police were not.” Pilgrim, my answer would be, “if it were appropriate, then yes I would. I use the word “appropriate” very deliberately here, because it demands a question, which I put to you: “Would you (A) lay down your life for my wife and child in their defense; or (B) at some point does your responsibility to get home safe to your own wife and child outweigh any obligation to lay your life down for my wife and child?” It has to be phrased in terms of laying down one’s life, because if you run to the sound of the guns, you stand a significant possibility of never ever coming home again. No thinking person can blindly answer in the affirmative without considering what impact that would have on his own family.

I don’t ask that question flippantly. It’s a serious question. Please understand that it has nothing to do with whether or not I think the lives of your family have value. As a religious person, I believe that their lives have great value. But I .....and anyone else who carries a firearm in public..... have to weigh that value against the value of their own loved one’s lives. So that begs a secondary question:

Would you, Pilgrim, be willing to step in and make up for the vacancy my death would make in the lives of my family, if I were to die in the defense of yours? Those are two BIG asks.......
  1. Will I run to the sound of the guns in defense of YOUR family; and
  2. if I am killed running to the sound of the guns in defense of YOUR family, will you step up and fill the void my absence will leave in MY family if I am killed in the defense of YOUR family?
I think that, when you frame the question that way - not leaving out the 2nd part of it - it becomes easier to understand why some people of perfectly good will, sound mind, and firm moral character make statements saying that they carry their guns for the defense of themselves and their loved ones, and that they’re willing to do the next best thing, which is to be a good witness and medical first responder, in defense of a third party. That doesn’t make them bad people. It simply means that they have given full consideration to BOTH sides of that question. So that leads to the next consideration..... Are the other families total strangers to me, or are they friends, or are they relatives of mine? This is an important distinction for the following reason: I can be very sure that if I laid my life down in defense of the family of one of my brothers, my brother would step up and make sure my family was taken care of going forward; I can be reasonably sure that if I laid down my life in defense of the family of a good friend, that friend would step up and make sure that my family was taken care of going forward. But if I lay down my life in the defense of a total stranger’s family, I have zero guarantee that that stranger will be a big enough man to step up and make sure my family is taken care of going forward.

THAT is why it is a BIG ask to expect that a total stranger would be willing to lay down his own life in defense of your family. It doesn’t make that stranger a selfish person, it merely means that he (or she) has made a very sober consideration of the full implications.

That is why I say in my own case that, “if it were appropriate”, then yes, I would use my firearm in defense of your family. What does “appropriate” mean to me? It can mean a couple of things. It can mean that I believe at the time that I have a high probability of both survival AND success. It can mean that their defense is incidental to my own self defense. For instance, your family is trapped by an armed robber in the back rows of the same 7/11 store where I am trapped in the same way. Then I would probably have my gun drawn and ready to use if the bad guy came back there. So your family would be under its protection. But if your family is in the back of that 7/11, and I am outside pumping gas, and I witness an armed robbery, so long as the bad guy stays focused on the cash register, takes the money, and comes out the front door, I am NOT going to go in there guns up to confront him ..... and provoke him into a gunfight that didn’t need to happen. Better I should stay by my car, behind cover if possible, and be a good witness. I have no obligation to stop the robbery. I’m a 65 year old gimpy guy with a bad back. I don’t get paid for that kind of crap. But even if I were a young father in good shape and just starting out with a new family, the calculus would be the same.

That’s why it really isn’t an easy question to answer, or a reasonable question to ask. Every situation is different, and every individual involved in any given situation is different. Not everyone has the same capacities or capabilities ......or even level of training, for that matter. When someone like Abraham answers like the grump old poot that he is ( :mrgreen: ), I totally get it......because I am a grumpy old poot; and grumpy old poots no longer live to the same standards as the young fit ones do.
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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#7

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

"“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

There are so many threads on this issue and one must wonder why. I've posted on many but not all of them, so I'll keep this brief. Of course one's response or non-response should be based upon the circumstances one reasonably believes to exist. TPC §9.33 codifies this concept. I haven't seen a single post from someone indicating that they will blindly thrust themselves into every potentially hostile scenario. However, I've seen numerous posts indicating quite the opposite. People have said they absolutely will not get involved with another person's problems under any circumstances, or at best, under extremely limited and unlikely circumstances.

"They should have been armed," "I'm not a LEO," "my LTC is for me and my family;" "I didn't get my CHL to be a hero;" the excuses go on and on. In my LTC classes we discuss getting involved with other peoples' problems when we have little information. I give some eye-opening examples of well-meaning rescuers getting killed or prosecuted. But at the end of the day, we all have to live with our choices.

Do what you will as will I. But don't call me a LEO want-to-be or foolhardy for doing what I believe is right and what I believe God requires.

Chas.
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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#8

Post by Oldgringo »

I think Chas. sums up this 'do unto others' scenario rather succinctly.

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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#9

Post by Abraham »

I see TAM's perspective as well thought out and reasonable.

Now, as to the grumpy old poot description...I'm not only a grumpy old poot, I'm quite scary looking to boot...scarred up face, wrinkled, bald, part of one ear missing, scowling (ok, yes, I smile a lot actually) but ready to help if it makes sense. With a bad back, knees that've been operated on, a repaired hernia, no, I'm not helping you move that couch into your living room from the delivery truck...find someone else.

As to helping with my gun: Yer darn tootin the circumstances matter. If they don't matter than by all means go where angels fear to tread...the legalities can take care of themselves...oh (at times) my reluctance to charge in like a knight errant annoy you, sorry chum, we live in a new world where good is often punished...
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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#10

Post by Oldgringo »

Abraham wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 11:47 am I see TAM's perspective as well thought out and reasonable.

Now, as to the grumpy old poot description...I'm not only a grumpy old poot, I'm quite scary looking to boot...scarred up face, wrinkled, bald, part of one ear missing, scowling (ok, yes, I smile a lot actually) but ready to help if it makes sense. With a bad back, knees that've been operated on, a repaired hernia, no, I'm not helping you move that couch into your living room from the delivery truck...find someone else.

As to helping with my gun: Yer darn tootin the circumstances matter. If they don't matter than by all means go where angels fear to tread...the legalities can take care of themselves...oh (at times) my reluctance to charge in like a knight errant annoy you, sorry chum, we live in a new world where good is often punished...
...and there is that, too.

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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#11

Post by rotor »

Pilgrim wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 9:21 pm I think we need a gold standard to live by.
I would hope that a good citizen would engage a bad guy with a gun if my wife, daughter, or son were there and the police were not. I can only hope God would give me the grace and courage to do the same.
This topic has been covered so many times. TAM I believe has answered it well. Let me ask of you though, who will take care of my family if I am killed trying to save your family?

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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#12

Post by OneGun »

TAM 's answer is a very good answer. How anyone responds is very dependent on the situation.
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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#13

Post by Pilgrim »

I wrote this big reply thanking everyone for their comments and answering Tam's questions. I spent my afternoon writing that post and then I think I pushed post reply instead of submit and deleted everything.
Let me just say two things to let people know where I am coming from.
A good guy is not a bad guy for not engaging.
If I were to die in a shooting defending strangers I would not expect one of them to take care of my family. I would trust God to do that and He does work through others.
If your requirement is that I take your place if you die defending my family then don't step in. That is not a standard I could meet on my own.
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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#14

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Pilgrim wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 2:41 pm If your requirement is that I take your place if you die defending my family then don't step in. That is not a standard I could meet on my own.
Pilgrim, I want to be clear.... I’m not saying that there must be a quid pro quo before I would take on the risk. Like both you and Charles have said, I am answerable to God for my actions, and I trust in His providence. Just ONE of the reasons I carry a gun is for the possibility that He may call me to be the agent of His intercession in a situation (Isaiah 6:8). The reason I brought that issue up was to make it very plain that when we hope that someone would step up and protect our loved ones if we’re not there to do it, we should appreciate the full weight of what we are hoping for, and what that may cost the other person. That’s ALL I am saying. There is a righteous middle ground between “my license is for me and mine only” on the one hand, and “I will always run to the sound of the guns” on the other hand; and that middle ground is where discernment and wisdom exist.
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Re: Do unto others as you would have someone do for you.

#15

Post by bigtek »

RoyGBiv wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 7:22 am
Pilgrim wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 9:21 pm I think we need a gold standard to live by.
I would hope that a good citizen would engage a bad guy with a gun if my wife, daughter, or son were there and the police were not. I can only hope God would give me the grace and courage to do the same.
Perhaps your wife could carry a gun and protect herself and your children as well.?
Why risk leaving self protection to strangers or uncertainty?
That's a great point and it reminds me of the parable of the ants and the grasshopper.
Deck the halls with nitroglycerin
Fa la la la la la la la la!
Strike a match and see who's missin'
Fa la la la la la la la la!
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