Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby longtooth » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:43 am

pedalman wrote:As much as I would like to vote my conscience and select Bob Barr on the ballot, I would have to go with McCain on this one. I still remember the fiasco that occurred when Ross Perot ran for office.


I do too & I am one of the guys that voted for him. That was a mistake.

I only made one other BIIIIG One Voted for Jimmy Carter. :banghead: Dont tell any one. Did not take long for the dumb Redneck Country Boy to figure it out. was just too late touugh.

I too would rather have Bar but had to go w/ M/P
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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby kalipsocs » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:15 pm

I think you guys should absolutely vote for who you would most like to have in office. If more people voted their conscious, we wouldn't be so entrenched in the 2 party system. Bottom line is the electoral college decides the president, the popular vote does not. So if an independent snaps up enough percentage, that sends a message to the 2 parties that they might wanna adopt some of their main issues. The biggest example was the Populist Party in the 1920s. I won't speak in detail on it because honestly its been some time since I first read about it, but the bottom line is that the Populist snapped up just enough votes to put the big 2 parties on edge. I 100% believe that could happen again just as long as we can break this thinking pattern that you "throw away your vote" by voting for someone else.

Texas is going red like it always does minus a few counties here or there. So you have nothing to lose by voting for someone other than the 2 main parties. And not to change topics, but the electoral college needs to be done away with....period. :patriot:

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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby The Annoyed Man » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:04 pm

kalipsocs wrote:And not to change topics, but the electoral college needs to be done away with....period. :patriot:

I disagree.
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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby longhorn_92 » Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:27 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
kalipsocs wrote:And not to change topics, but the electoral college needs to be done away with....period. :patriot:

I disagree.


:iagree: :iagree:
I agree with your disagree!!
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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby kalipsocs » Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:30 pm

Why? How is it a fair election that a few select people decide the next president than the total count of votes for the entire country? Not to mention no one is riding on horseback as fast as they can to get the vote in! Times change and its hardly fair that Pennsylvania, Ohio, and a couple other states get to choose the next president.

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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby Liberty » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:52 pm

kalipsocs wrote:Why? How is it a fair election that a few select people decide the next president than the total count of votes for the entire country? Not to mention no one is riding on horseback as fast as they can to get the vote in! Times change and its hardly fair that Pennsylvania, Ohio, and a couple other states get to choose the next president.

The fear is if we just made it a pure popular vote the folks on the coasts would get to decide who gets to be president. The smaller (Red states) would have less influence.
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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby Liberty » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:02 pm

longtooth wrote:
pedalman wrote:As much as I would like to vote my conscience and select Bob Barr on the ballot, I would have to go with McCain on this one. I still remember the fiasco that occurred when Ross Perot ran for office.


I do too & I am one of the guys that voted for him. That was a mistake.



The thing is that that Perot was a Texan that drew votes away away from conservatives in an otherwise close race: One might be reluctant to vote Bob Barr if they lived in Florida, its pretty close there and one might want to do all they can to stop Obam from winning that state. IMHO don't run the same risk in Texas because McCain is expected to run away with the election, its winner take all for electoral votes. Winning by a landslide doesn't help the candidate any more than winning by a handful of votes.
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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby kalipsocs » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:28 pm

Liberty wrote:
kalipsocs wrote:Why? How is it a fair election that a few select people decide the next president than the total count of votes for the entire country? Not to mention no one is riding on horseback as fast as they can to get the vote in! Times change and its hardly fair that Pennsylvania, Ohio, and a couple other states get to choose the next president.

The fear is if we just made it a pure popular vote the folks on the coasts would get to decide who gets to be president. The smaller (Red states) would have less influence.

What I advocate is one vote, one person. Tally up the entire country, see who wins. Doesn't matter where you live then AND your vote actually counts. But I am hijacking this thread with the issue. To get back to the topic, I did vote for Bob Barr this afternoon! So at least its done.


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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby PWK » Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:07 pm

Winning by a landslide or winning by a few votes is still a winner. However also winning by a landslide or by a few votes determines how strong a president we will have. Make no mistake I do want McC to win. BO would be a disaster on too many levels. I just want a weak McC. Hopefully then if he is still able to run in 012 he will decide not to run. I also want the powers that be to take a lesson from this election. Imagine if in CA or NY, two states secured for BO, if Barr were to get more votes than McC. I would hope that would cause a stir in the Repub party. Maybe even make the conservative voters take a more active role and re-energize conservatism in the Repub. party. I realize the moderate NE Repubs won't go down easy but 1980, 1984 and 1994 proved that a well articulated, principled conservative candidate/s can win handedly. Anyway, I can't see much future in a Repub party moving to the left just to keep up with the Dem's as they move even further to the left.

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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby Skiprr » Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:46 pm

Thank you, The Annoyed Man. I took this bullet once before; you're doing a much better job of it than I.

The only point I'll make is this analogy: if you're on a raft, lost at sea with a few other guys, the sharks circling, the time to negotiate terms, to lobby for your interests, is not when it's already down to drawing straws.

As of November 4, 2008, there are two straws left: one long and one short. The time to enact a strategy, the time to try to influence the parties and the final candidates, was months ago.
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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby PWK » Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:45 pm

Skiprr I'd agree with you if I lived in OH, PN, FL or another swing state. There you have to vote for McC. But in states that are locked up for one or the other candidate, especially a BO state, a vote for Barr is salvo against the Northeast liberal Repubs that have so diluted the Repub. party. Look at so many moderate Repubs endorsing BO. The McC and inside the beltway Repub's strategy was supposed to attract independents, moderates and right leaning Dem. That strategy failed miserably so I believe we must continue to fight and not settle for the lesser of two evils once again.

I would say, however, that the best place to decide these issues is the primaries but that doesn't mean you don't just drop your principles or opportunities just because it's a general election.


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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby dawgfishboy » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:36 pm

kalipsocs wrote:I think you guys should absolutely vote for who you would most like to have in office....
:iagree:
Politicians won't get the message otherwise.

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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby The Annoyed Man » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:39 pm

kalipsocs wrote:Why? How is it a fair election that a few select people decide the next president than the total count of votes for the entire country? Not to mention no one is riding on horseback as fast as they can to get the vote in! Times change and its hardly fair that Pennsylvania, Ohio, and a couple other states get to choose the next president.

Well, you'll have to amend the Constitution to get rid of it, as the electoral college (as it is called now) was established under the authority of Article II, Section I, and Amendment 12. In order to pass a new amendment abolishing the electoral college, you would have to have it ratified by 3/4 of the 50 states - which will never happen because, for many of those states, it would not be in their interests to do so, and they darn will know it.

According to USConstitution.net:
The Framers were wary of giving the people the power to directly elect the President — some felt the citizenry too beholden to local interests, too easily duped by promises or shenanigans, or simply because a national election, in the time of oil lamps and quill pens, was just impractical. Some proposals gave the power to the Congress, but this did not sit well with those who wanted to see true separation of the branches of the new government. Still others felt the state legislatures should decide, but this was thought to make the President too beholden to state interests. The Electoral College, proposed by James Wilson, was the compromise that the Constitutional Convention reached.

The phrase "too beholden to local interests" would be played out by such things as the local interests of large cities of the eastern and western seaboards, the great lakes region, and the Mississippi river valley completely overwhelming the local interests of Wyoming cattle ranchers and Kansas wheat farmers. The fact that an enormous chunk of the population live in the nation's largest cities still tends to have that effect, but it is somewhat mitigated by the electoral college.

Since the nation was founded on the premise that we are a federation of sovereign states, the interests of the several states have to be looked after in the selection of a nationally elected office. Amending the Constitution will remove that filter, effectively disenfranchising anybody who lives in a predominantly rural state. Abolishing the electoral college sounds like a good idea until you unpack it. Then it doesn't stand up so well.
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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby kalipsocs » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:45 pm

...or simply because a national election, in the time of oil lamps and quill pens, was just impractical.


You make a decent case, but you conveniently left out that second part of the same sentence. My simple answer to the flaw in this logic is the 2004 election. Shoot me down for using wikipedia, but their numbers state Bush netted 62,040,610 votes and Kerry 59,028,444. Thats is a difference of 3,012,166 votes a narrow margin when you are talking about 121+ million votes. If you ask me, thats about as middle of the road as you get. Based on that phenomenon, I don't see how your argument for the electoral college makes much sense.

And ye have little faith in ratifying a new amendment. The last amendment (27th to be precise) to be ratified was in 1992 by a student from UT. Granted, it was presented 100+ years previously, but unless a time limit is specified for such matters a proposed amendment may go on indefinitely as provided in Supreme Court case Coleman vs. Miller. So all you would have to do is make a good case! But I am not going to argue over what isn't and over something I am not going to spearhead.


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Re: Electorial college strategy in 08 vote Barr

Postby KBCraig » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:21 pm

The problem with the electoral college system started with the direct election of senators.

Well, it actually started when we lost the War of Northern Aggression and became an occupied territory forced back into the Union by conquest; this changed the "United States", plural, into a single State. The election of the chief executive thus becomes more important than the election of Representatives and state legislators.

This is why ignorant Americans who can't even name their legislators, representatives, and senators, wind up deciding the presidency. Meanwhile, those people they can't even name run amok.


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