M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby The Annoyed Man » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:27 pm

parabelum wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
parabelum wrote:I've only heard of slamfires with military rifles using civilian ammo, mostly garands with modern ammo. Not very common though, but it is definitely worth a ban until it is made safe if I owned the range.
With Garand, at least you know that this might happen with civilian modern ammo. You use surplus or Garand ammo and problem solved (still practice extreme caution of course).

I would suspect that many buy these .22s for their kids to plink with, making it even more dangerous when you have this sort of malfunction.

So, yes. I'd ban them until they (s&w) get this figured out.

My only slam fires were experienced with a Bushmaster 24" Varminter I no longer own, shooting a really hot hunting handload a friend gave me to try out, which he had enjoyed great success with while deer hunting. I don't know the powder charge, but it was pushing a 65 grain Gameking at about 3100 fps from his 20" barreled rifle. I was with him on one such hunt when he took a doe from 90 yards out, right through the back of the head, with the bullet exiting between her eyes. She went instant rag doll. That seemed like a pretty effective round, and so I was eager to try some in my rifle to see how they shot. One trigger pull produced a quick bangbangbang, followed by a FTF which arrested the process. The guy to my left was looking over at me with saucer eyes.

I dropped the mag and set the rest of that ammo aside. :lol:


So it became Bushmaster full auto just like that :lol:: :fire

Exactly. And it was around that time that US v. Olafson was being litigated in which a dude goes to prison because his gun allegedly slam fired. I wasn't having any of that!
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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby Middle Age Russ » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:42 pm

So is there a better "stock" rifle to choose than a Ruger 10/22 Takedown?


Arguably, the most prolific rimfire at Appleseed events is the 10/22. The Takedown version is certainly adequate, and you can use it as-is, but you'll get more out of the experience and learn how to be a better rifle shooter with the use of a sling, and better sights are never a bad idea. As I mentioned, I did two upgrades to my wife's 10/22 Takedown to make it a better Liberty Training Rifle (LTR) for the event. I failed to mention that I also put in a modified bolt release as well to assist with returning to fire after a magazine change.

My Appleseed gun is a 10/22 carbine with Nodak Spud sights, a modified bolt release and a web sling in a Hogue olive drab stock with sling swivel studs.

One of the 50th anniversary 10/22 models from Ruger has a full stock similar to the Ruger American rimfire bolt action guns, and it has an aperture sight with a section of picatinny rail. I don't know how easy or repeatable the sight is to adjust, but if it isn't too hard to adjust and the aperture isn't too large (they marketed it as a ghost ring sight), this gun might be pretty good out of the box for Appleseed.

A while back, Marlin released a version of their 795 as the 795 LTR, featuring a web sling and Tech-Sights. The only issues with these guns for an Appleseed are that the single stack box magazine protrudes from the underside of the stock which can make a comfortable and stable standing position more difficult, and that the magazine does not fall free when the release is pressed. If you can find this model, it'll almost surely be a cheaper, quite acceptable option versus the 10/22.

For a write-up about the Ruger 50th Anniversary gun and comparison to the Marlin 795 LTR, here is a post on the Appleseed discussion group.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=43961.0

There are certainly plenty of other guns you could use, but these two would be at the top of my list.
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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby Pawpaw » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:46 pm

The best info about getting ready for an Appleseed event, including rifle, is found here: https://appleseedinfo.org/as_prepare.html
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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby olafpfj » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:07 pm

I shot an appleseed a few years ago and it was awesome!

Started out with a Ruger mini14 but it quickly became problematic with so many FTE that I couldnt complete a string. Never did figure out what the issue was other than it was drizzling which may have caused the 5.56 rounds to stick. Who knows as it never did it again after that event.

In frustration I asked if I could switch rifles. They asked what I wanted to shoot instead and I informed I should do things proper with my Garand. They agreed :coolgleamA:

The 2 round clips are a little hard to deal with but I would start with one and reload with the 8. It was tons of fun and the younger shooters got to see a real rifle in action...the shooter not so much :grumble I didnt shoot all that great.
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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby C-dub » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:39 pm

I've considered trying out an Appleseed event, but now I'm not so sure. First they say any rifle will do, but then talk about 10 or 20 round magazines. What about tube magazines? Other than my 15-22, my only other .22lr rifles have tubes. Another friend of mine thought about doing this together with our daughters.
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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby txinstructor » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:44 pm

C-dub wrote:I've considered trying out an Appleseed event, but now I'm not so sure. First they say any rifle will do, but then talk about 10 or 20 round magazines. What about tube magazines? Other than my 15-22, my only other .22lr rifles have tubes. Another friend of mine thought about doing this together with our daughters.
k

Any rifle will do (except a single shot). I've seen several tube fed, including a lever action (and yes, people shoot rifleman scores with a tube fed). For tube fed the instructor should give you a different procedure for loading. The course of fire includes mandatory reloads - obviously not gonna happen with a tube fed rifle, so they change the loading procedure to make up for it. Many Appleseed events don't restrict caliber so you might see M1 Garand's, AR-15's, even an occasional British Enfield or 1903 Springfield.

Mostly when someone asks what is the "best" rifle for Appleseed is when you are going to hear about 10 or 20 round magazines, GI web slings, aperture sights, etc. If your goal is to score well within the time limits set in the course of fire, it makes sense to have equipment that makes it as easy as possible to accomplish that. If your goal is to learn a ton about the fundamentals of shooting a rifle with precision, AND hearing some American history and heritage that they didn't teach us in school...then bring whatever you got and show up. You'll have a ball.

Last thing I'll mention is that generally it's better to bring the rifle you're comfortable with...you're probably comfortable with it because you've shot it a lot. I've seen people spend a chunk of money buying a new rifle and setting it up just for Appleseed...and then having a miserable time because the rifle ain't broke in and they couldn't get it to run.

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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby C-dub » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:43 am

txinstructor wrote:
C-dub wrote:I've considered trying out an Appleseed event, but now I'm not so sure. First they say any rifle will do, but then talk about 10 or 20 round magazines. What about tube magazines? Other than my 15-22, my only other .22lr rifles have tubes. Another friend of mine thought about doing this together with our daughters.
k

Any rifle will do (except a single shot). I've seen several tube fed, including a lever action (and yes, people shoot rifleman scores with a tube fed). For tube fed the instructor should give you a different procedure for loading. The course of fire includes mandatory reloads - obviously not gonna happen with a tube fed rifle, so they change the loading procedure to make up for it. Many Appleseed events don't restrict caliber so you might see M1 Garand's, AR-15's, even an occasional British Enfield or 1903 Springfield.

Mostly when someone asks what is the "best" rifle for Appleseed is when you are going to hear about 10 or 20 round magazines, GI web slings, aperture sights, etc. If your goal is to score well within the time limits set in the course of fire, it makes sense to have equipment that makes it as easy as possible to accomplish that. If your goal is to learn a ton about the fundamentals of shooting a rifle with precision, AND hearing some American history and heritage that they didn't teach us in school...then bring whatever you got and show up. You'll have a ball.

Last thing I'll mention is that generally it's better to bring the rifle you're comfortable with...you're probably comfortable with it because you've shot it a lot. I've seen people spend a chunk of money buying a new rifle and setting it up just for Appleseed...and then having a miserable time because the rifle ain't broke in and they couldn't get it to run.


That's good to know. I wouldn't mind doing this with my Garand, Enfield, or 1903, but would wait until I was able to get an original type stock to replace the sporterized one on the 1903.
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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby bblhd672 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:41 am

C-dub wrote:That's good to know. I wouldn't mind doing this with my Garand, Enfield, or 1903, but would wait until I was able to get an original type stock to replace the sporterized one on the 1903.


Looks like the events on the calendar for DFW area are .22 only.
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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby txinstructor » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:34 pm

bblhd672 wrote:
C-dub wrote:That's good to know. I wouldn't mind doing this with my Garand, Enfield, or 1903, but would wait until I was able to get an original type stock to replace the sporterized one on the 1903.


Looks like the events on the calendar for DFW area are .22 only.

'
Come to Midland, October 29 & 30 - it's a "known distance" Appleseed. That means instead of shooting at 25 yards using smaller targets to simulate longer distances we'll actually be shooting at 100, 200, 300 & 400 yards. A really good place to test that Garand or Enfield...and the shooter.

And I'll apologize...we're wandering off topic a bit, but if I see an opening to put in a plug for Appleseed it's hard to resist.


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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby cyphertext » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:30 am

My beef with this is that Appleseed appears to have thrown S&W under the bus without taking any responsibility for themselves. Simple things like dividers between the shooters and more space between shooters could mitigate the potential for injury from a OOB discharge with a .22lr. After all, OOB discharges happen with many semiautomatic .22lr firearms, not just the M&P 15-22. Ruger, Marlin, you name it...they have all had an OOB discharge happen.

And, add me to the group that has thousands of rounds down range through a 15-22 without an issue. If this was a widespread issue that required action such as a recall, the forums dedicated to these rifles would be all over it...


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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby philip964 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:56 am

Sorry I don't know much about rifles. They have batteries?

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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby AndyC » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:50 am

"Out of battery" means that the bolt isn't locked into position - pretty dangerous when the cartridge fires.
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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby Pawpaw » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:21 pm

philip964 wrote:Sorry I don't know much about rifles. They have batteries?


AndyC wrote:"Out of battery" means that the bolt isn't locked into position - pretty dangerous when the cartridge fires.

Congratulations Philip!! You caught a live one!!! :lol:
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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby bblhd672 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:11 pm

But seriously...has there been any new information on this from either S&W or Appleseed?
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Re: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges

Postby AndyC » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:24 pm

Pawpaw wrote:
philip964 wrote:Sorry I don't know much about rifles. They have batteries?


AndyC wrote:"Out of battery" means that the bolt isn't locked into position - pretty dangerous when the cartridge fires.

Congratulations Philip!! You caught a live one!!! :lol:

I took the chance in case it was a genuine question - I don't know how much or little he knows.
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