AR-15 trigger?

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Oldgringo
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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby Oldgringo » Fri May 05, 2017 9:01 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:I have two ARs with modified or aftermarket triggers. One is simply an OEM milspec trigger that has been tuned a bit by bending some springs, and very lightly smoothing out some contact surfaces. It is better than OEM, but not great. The other is a drop in aftermarket unit from Timney with a 3 lb pull that breaks like a glass rod and has a ridiculously short reset. The modified trigger cost me nothing but the time. The Timney trigger was $237.90, and worth every single penny. There are other drop-in trigger units, like from Geissele that are in the same price range as the Timney, and there are others that cost less, but I can't speak to their quality because I have no experience with them.

Here's the qualifier...... If you have a $500 AR15, it probably isn't worth a $238 trigger upgrade. OTH, if you have a real expensive AR (I have several thousand $$ in mine), then it deserves a really good trigger. My advice is this: just get used to the rifle. Shoot it a bunch. Get familiar with the manual of arms. The milspec trigger isn't great, but it isn't the worst trigger in the world either. You might be better advised to put your money into optics and furniture upgrades first, and only upgrade the trigger when you've got all the other basics covered.

That's just my opinion, and worth exactly what it cost to read it.

Spot on correct! :iagree:


jason812
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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby jason812 » Fri May 05, 2017 9:16 pm

Hiperfire's EDT line is worth looking at for less than a Benjamin. Lighter pull and very little creep.

For a target, nice, or bench gun, I've been wanting to try an Elfman.

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Bozz48
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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby Bozz48 » Fri May 05, 2017 9:32 pm

I installed an ALG Defense QMS trigger in my PSA AR. It smoothed the pull and lowered the the pull weight from 6½ lbs to 5½ lbs. It's very easy to do.

Check on Palmetto State Armory's website. They have an enhanced polished trigger for $29.99

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comp73
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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby comp73 » Mon May 08, 2017 10:13 am

Oldgringo wrote:Thanks guys. Joe Bob has the KAW Spring Kits for $20. I think I'll give 'em a DIY try before I spend another couple hundred bucks on somebody's drop-in trigger kit.


Another thing to consider is polishing certain parts of the trigger assembly. This should take out some of the "gritty" feeling.

http://www.shtfblog.com/diy-ar-15-trigger-job-for-17-06/
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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby maverick2076 » Mon May 08, 2017 12:17 pm

PSA's enhanced polished trigger is a good cheap upgrade. I have it in all of my AR's now. Its a noticeable improvement over a stock mil spec. Its not on par with a Geisselle by any stretch...but its also only $30.


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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby MrMcCullster » Mon May 08, 2017 2:39 pm

I'm currently building my first AR-15, having just shot a friend of mines about 3 or 4 months ago.

I don't have enough funds to just go plop down on a good rifle, so I started piecing one together. I started with the lower, and went with the Geissele SSA-E trigger. I now have a fully assembled lower and buttstock.

If I can watch a few YouTube videos and install it, anyone can. I even would have felt comfortable doing a replacement, instead of a true "drop-in". With minimal tools like a roll of duct tape as a bench block.

Now for the expensive stuff like the barrel, BCG, and free-floating handrail and I'll have a full rifle.

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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby Oldgringo » Mon May 08, 2017 9:23 pm

comp73 wrote:
Oldgringo wrote:Thanks guys. Joe Bob has the KAW Spring Kits for $20. I think I'll give 'em a DIY try before I spend another couple hundred bucks on somebody's drop-in trigger kit.


Another thing to consider is polishing certain parts of the trigger assembly. This should take out some of the "gritty" feeling.

http://www.shtfblog.com/diy-ar-15-trigger-job-for-17-06/


Thanks all. TAM hit the nail on the head. I ain't gonna' put a $2-300 trigger assembly in a $500 gun. I'll find other ways to get more joy out of my entry level AR's.

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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby Oldgringo » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:24 pm

I've completed Joe Bob Outfitter's < $20, "poor man's trigger job" on both AR's. The trigger pull has been reduced from ~8 lbs. down to ~4 lbs. It's not the ~1 lb trigger pull on my CZ 452's but I'm okay with 'em.

I've also tried out the IMI 5.56 55 gr. ammo in the Bushmaster and I think we have a match. Next week, we'll sight-in the Ruger and see how the IMI works there. ITMT, :cheers2: y'all.


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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby GreenMan0352 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:33 am

I've never done a actual trigger job but all my AR's and my Tavor have Geissele triggers and my AK's have Tapco triggers. I was looking at the Tac-Con Raptor trigger for one of my Arsenals but I'm not sure if it would be worth the $$


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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby cyphertext » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:22 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:Here's the qualifier...... If you have a $500 AR15, it probably isn't worth a $238 trigger upgrade. OTH, if you have a real expensive AR (I have several thousand $$ in mine), then it deserves a really good trigger. My advice is this: just get used to the rifle. Shoot it a bunch. Get familiar with the manual of arms. The milspec trigger isn't great, but it isn't the worst trigger in the world either. You might be better advised to put your money into optics and furniture upgrades first, and only upgrade the trigger when you've got all the other basics covered.

That's just my opinion, and worth exactly what it cost to read it.


Would like to understand the rationale behind the $500 AR not worth a $238 trigger upgrade... why not? One of the most recommended improvements for accuracy is an upgraded trigger. Where do you draw the line? Does a Colt LE6920 deserve a good trigger, but not an M&P 15 Sport? Or maybe BCM? Or do you have to move up to LaRue before you add a good trigger?

Full disclosure... have an M&P 15 Sport (the first gen) with stock trigger, a CMMG with stock trigger, and a BCM with the BCM PNT trigger (slicked up mil-spec trigger)... I'm not putting a $238 trigger in any of these.


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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:54 am

cyphertext wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:Here's the qualifier...... If you have a $500 AR15, it probably isn't worth a $238 trigger upgrade. OTH, if you have a real expensive AR (I have several thousand $$ in mine), then it deserves a really good trigger. My advice is this: just get used to the rifle. Shoot it a bunch. Get familiar with the manual of arms. The milspec trigger isn't great, but it isn't the worst trigger in the world either. You might be better advised to put your money into optics and furniture upgrades first, and only upgrade the trigger when you've got all the other basics covered.

That's just my opinion, and worth exactly what it cost to read it.


Would like to understand the rationale behind the $500 AR not worth a $238 trigger upgrade... why not? One of the most recommended improvements for accuracy is an upgraded trigger. Where do you draw the line? Does a Colt LE6920 deserve a good trigger, but not an M&P 15 Sport? Or maybe BCM? Or do you have to move up to LaRue before you add a good trigger?

Full disclosure... have an M&P 15 Sport (the first gen) with stock trigger, a CMMG with stock trigger, and a BCM with the BCM PNT trigger (slicked up mil-spec trigger)... I'm not putting a $238 trigger in any of these.


I think it has to do with the incremental benefit that you are getting relative to incremental cost. If you want a basic AR that is fairly reliable and reasonably accurate, then a $500 AR will accomplish that goal. Actually right now more like $450, pending any potential rumblings out of Pelosi, Hillie, and company. If you then say, hey let me change that gun into a competition worthy tack driver, you might want a new trigger. But a $240 trigger, which increases your investment by 50%, will only give you so much accuracy improvement until you also switch out the barrel and a few other parts.

I think the general thought here is that if you are going for that tack driver weapon, you are better off buying a higher end AR in the first place, or better yet building one from the start with all higher end parts.

Then again, I personally have installed $200 triggers in Glocks, so I'm not one to criticize if someone wants a $240 trigger for their DPMS AR.
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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby cyphertext » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:12 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
I think it has to do with the incremental benefit that you are getting relative to incremental cost. If you want a basic AR that is fairly reliable and reasonably accurate, then a $500 AR will accomplish that goal. Actually right now more like $450, pending any potential rumblings out of Pelosi, Hillie, and company. If you then say, hey let me change that gun into a competition worthy tack driver, you might want a new trigger. But a $240 trigger, which increases your investment by 50%, will only give you so much accuracy improvement until you also switch out the barrel and a few other parts.

I think the general thought here is that if you are going for that tack driver weapon, you are better off buying a higher end AR in the first place, or better yet building one from the start with all higher end parts.

Then again, I personally have installed $200 triggers in Glocks, so I'm not one to criticize if someone wants a $240 trigger for their DPMS AR.


I've seen folks who could shoot sub MOA with handloads in a $500 AR with a good trigger. The "higher end parts" in an AR are things like barrel steel, or HPT and MPI bolts... things that don't necessarily add to accuracy. My BCM is higher quality than my Sport, but it really isn't more accurate in my use... both rifles shoot 2 to 3 MOA with typical range fodder ammo.

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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby The Annoyed Man » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:32 pm

cyphertext wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:
I think it has to do with the incremental benefit that you are getting relative to incremental cost. If you want a basic AR that is fairly reliable and reasonably accurate, then a $500 AR will accomplish that goal. Actually right now more like $450, pending any potential rumblings out of Pelosi, Hillie, and company. If you then say, hey let me change that gun into a competition worthy tack driver, you might want a new trigger. But a $240 trigger, which increases your investment by 50%, will only give you so much accuracy improvement until you also switch out the barrel and a few other parts.

I think the general thought here is that if you are going for that tack driver weapon, you are better off buying a higher end AR in the first place, or better yet building one from the start with all higher end parts.

Then again, I personally have installed $200 triggers in Glocks, so I'm not one to criticize if someone wants a $240 trigger for their DPMS AR.


I've seen folks who could shoot sub MOA with handloads in a $500 AR with a good trigger. The "higher end parts" in an AR are things like barrel steel, or HPT and MPI bolts... things that don't necessarily add to accuracy. My BCM is higher quality than my Sport, but it really isn't more accurate in my use... both rifles shoot 2 to 3 MOA with typical range fodder ammo.

Hey, spend your money however you see fit. I spoke in general terms. The heart of an AR15 are the barrel, and the bolt carrier group. If you have a $400-$500 AR15, you don’t have a match grade barrel, or a match grade BCG. It’s not junk, but it’s not a match grade rifle. What Soccerdad1995 said about incremental cost benefits is spot on. If it makes you happy to put a $238 trigger in a $500 gun, be my guest. It does make for a nicer shooting experience. But you won’t realize as much accuracy improvement as you would if you spent the same money on a barrel upgrade. This is not just truth for ARs....this is truth for rifles. A better barrel and bolt lockup will yield a better accuracy result than a better trigger alone. If you’ve already got the better barrel and bolt lockup, then the better trigger will take it to the next level.

I have three aftermarket Timney triggers, one in a Remington 700 precision rifle, one in an AR15, and one in a SCAR 17. The Remington and the AR15 are both match-grade precision weapons. The trigger is the final piece (optics not included) to creating a weapon that shoots precisely. The Timney that’s in the SCAR is there just to improve the shooting experience - as the SCAR’s EOM trigger is way too heavy (8 lbs) out of the box. But that Timney in the SCAR doesn’t really add to its accuracy. It was a very accurate rifle out of the box from day one - so far as battle rifles go - but it is stil just a battle rifle. The trigger makes it a lot nicer to shoot, but not any more accurate than it was before.

So I’m not saying not to put a nice trigger on your rifle if you want to. It will make for a a nicer shooting experience. I’m just saying that it isn’t going to be the primary thing that upgrades your rifle’s accuracy. Your BCM and your S&W both shoot 2-3 MOA with standard fodder because they are are not made to match tolerances. BCM makes fine rifles. In fact, I’m looking at building my next AR - a 20” A4 replica - on a BCM gov’t profile barrel and receiver. I don’t expect better than about 2 MOA out of it, because that’s the limit of the barrel. Changing the trigger won’t change that. OTH, I have a 16” carbine with match grade barrel, with 5R polygonal rifling, which the barrel manufacturer guarantees sub MOA with match ammo......and it DOES shoot that well. It shoots about 1-1.5 MOA with non-match ammo. Again, the barrel is the heart of the beast, followed by bolt lockup, followed by trigger locktime and reset.
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cyphertext
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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby cyphertext » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:18 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:
I think it has to do with the incremental benefit that you are getting relative to incremental cost. If you want a basic AR that is fairly reliable and reasonably accurate, then a $500 AR will accomplish that goal. Actually right now more like $450, pending any potential rumblings out of Pelosi, Hillie, and company. If you then say, hey let me change that gun into a competition worthy tack driver, you might want a new trigger. But a $240 trigger, which increases your investment by 50%, will only give you so much accuracy improvement until you also switch out the barrel and a few other parts.

I think the general thought here is that if you are going for that tack driver weapon, you are better off buying a higher end AR in the first place, or better yet building one from the start with all higher end parts.

Then again, I personally have installed $200 triggers in Glocks, so I'm not one to criticize if someone wants a $240 trigger for their DPMS AR.


I've seen folks who could shoot sub MOA with handloads in a $500 AR with a good trigger. The "higher end parts" in an AR are things like barrel steel, or HPT and MPI bolts... things that don't necessarily add to accuracy. My BCM is higher quality than my Sport, but it really isn't more accurate in my use... both rifles shoot 2 to 3 MOA with typical range fodder ammo.

Hey, spend your money however you see fit. I spoke in general terms. The heart of an AR15 are the barrel, and the bolt carrier group. If you have a $400-$500 AR15, you don’t have a match grade barrel, or a match grade BCG. It’s not junk, but it’s not a match grade rifle. What Soccerdad1995 said about incremental cost benefits is spot on. If it makes you happy to put a $238 trigger in a $500 gun, be my guest. It does make for a nicer shooting experience. But you won’t realize as much accuracy improvement as you would if you spent the same money on a barrel upgrade. This is not just truth for ARs....this is truth for rifles. A better barrel and bolt lockup will yield a better accuracy result than a better trigger alone. If you’ve already got the better barrel and bolt lockup, then the better trigger will take it to the next level.

I have three aftermarket Timney triggers, one in a Remington 700 precision rifle, one in an AR15, and one in a SCAR 17. The Remington and the AR15 are both match-grade precision weapons. The trigger is the final piece (optics not included) to creating a weapon that shoots precisely. The Timney that’s in the SCAR is there just to improve the shooting experience - as the SCAR’s EOM trigger is way too heavy (8 lbs) out of the box. But that Timney in the SCAR doesn’t really add to its accuracy. It was a very accurate rifle out of the box from day one - so far as battle rifles go - but it is stil just a battle rifle. The trigger makes it a lot nicer to shoot, but not any more accurate than it was before.

So I’m not saying not to put a nice trigger on your rifle if you want to. It will make for a a nicer shooting experience. I’m just saying that it isn’t going to be the primary thing that upgrades your rifle’s accuracy. Your BCM and your S&W both shoot 2-3 MOA with standard fodder because they are are not made to match tolerances. BCM makes fine rifles. In fact, I’m looking at building my next AR - a 20” A4 replica - on a BCM gov’t profile barrel and receiver. I don’t expect better than about 2 MOA out of it, because that’s the limit of the barrel. Changing the trigger won’t change that. OTH, I have a 16” carbine with match grade barrel, with 5R polygonal rifling, which the barrel manufacturer guarantees sub MOA with match ammo......and it DOES shoot that well. It shoots about 1-1.5 MOA with non-match ammo. Again, the barrel is the heart of the beast, followed by bolt lockup, followed by trigger locktime and reset.

I'm not sure how much of the 2 - 3 MOA is the rifle vs. the ammo, or how much is me. None of my ARs have magnification. Have a dime store red dot on the Smith, haven't added an optic to the BCM yet, and have a cheap red dot on the CMMG as well (but it is also a dedicated .22lr)... My Smith has 5R rifling, and like I have said, I have seen a couple of buddies shoot sub MOA with theirs as well, with their own reloads. I shoot whatever garbage is cheapest through my Smith, not really looking for one ragged hole. Not really what the rifle was intended for, for me anyway.

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Re: AR-15 trigger?

Postby ScottDLS » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:23 pm

I'm looking for one of those triggers that lets you shoot once when you pull back and once when you push forward...or maybe a crank, that pulls the trigger a bunch of times as you crank it. Accuracy is not important, just simulation of full auto fire without the $25,000 cost and the stamp. :biggrinjester:
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