FL: Fearing lawsuit, regulators stop harassing private gun range owner

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ELB
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FL: Fearing lawsuit, regulators stop harassing private gun range owner

Postby ELB » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:36 pm

In chronological order, here is the background: https://www.thegunwriter.com/22839/excl ... gun-range/

Here is the resolution: https://www.thegunwriter.com/23186/fear ... nge-owner/

Key bits: Florida has state pre-emption for the regulation of firearms, and the pre-emption statute has teeth in it. Governmental employees who violate it by attempting to regulate guns, ranges, etc, may be personally fined $5000. Elected officials may be personally fined $5K and removed from office.

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bblhd672
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Re: FL: Fearing lawsuit, regulators stop harassing private gun range owner

Postby bblhd672 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:25 pm

ELB wrote:Key bits: Florida has state pre-emption for the regulation of firearms, and the pre-emption statute has teeth in it. Governmental employees who violate it by attempting to regulate guns, ranges, etc, may be personally fined $5000. Elected officials may be personally fined $5K and removed from office.


That is how "fines for signs" should work in Texas!
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apostate
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Re: FL: Fearing lawsuit, regulators stop harassing private gun range owner

Postby apostate » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:33 pm

bblhd672 wrote:
ELB wrote:Key bits: Florida has state pre-emption for the regulation of firearms, and the pre-emption statute has teeth in it. Governmental employees who violate it by attempting to regulate guns, ranges, etc, may be personally fined $5000. Elected officials may be personally fined $5K and removed from office.


That is how "fines for signs" should work in Texas!

And we all know why it doesn't work that way in Texas. Why the legislature allows "bad apple" government officials to hide behind taxpayers' wallets instead of having personal liability for their actions. Right?

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: FL: Fearing lawsuit, regulators stop harassing private gun range owner

Postby The Annoyed Man » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:20 pm

I love a happy ending. Now, if we can just make violators personally responsible for the fines in Texas when they post fraudulent signs......
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Re: FL: Fearing lawsuit, regulators stop harassing private gun range owner

Postby treadlightly » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:30 pm

The Texas Public Information Act already works like that. The fines and jail time apply to the individuals, not the government offices.

Or, I should say, would apply to the individuals if the law was enforced the way it ought to be. It mostly works. Mostly.

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Re: FL: Fearing lawsuit, regulators stop harassing private gun range owner

Postby puma guy » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:25 pm

bblhd672 wrote:
ELB wrote:Key bits: Florida has state pre-emption for the regulation of firearms, and the pre-emption statute has teeth in it. Governmental employees who violate it by attempting to regulate guns, ranges, etc, may be personally fined $5000. Elected officials may be personally fined $5K and removed from office.


That is how "fines for signs" should work in Texas!

:iagree:
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Re: FL: Fearing lawsuit, regulators stop harassing private gun range owner

Postby rotor » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:03 pm

I personally am glad that the property owner still has his gun range but really, this was a business. He set up an LLC for liability protection and he charges money for shooting his guns. This was not a family gun range where you let a few friends come in. I have a family gun range, I let a few friends use it, I don't charge and it is not an LLC. The property is titled in mine and my wife's name.
I do like the idea that Florida penalizes government employees directly for improper posting and harassment of individuals. I also wish that I had the guns this guy has and that it would be legal to buy a modern automatic weapon just like I buy a semi-auto. Dream on.


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Re: FL: Fearing lawsuit, regulators stop harassing private gun range owner

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:25 pm

rotor wrote:I personally am glad that the property owner still has his gun range but really, this was a business. He set up an LLC for liability protection and he charges money for shooting his guns. This was not a family gun range where you let a few friends come in. I have a family gun range, I let a few friends use it, I don't charge and it is not an LLC. The property is titled in mine and my wife's name.
I do like the idea that Florida penalizes government employees directly for improper posting and harassment of individuals. I also wish that I had the guns this guy has and that it would be legal to buy a modern automatic weapon just like I buy a semi-auto. Dream on.


Even a for profit gun range is protected from local code or regulatory enforcement per Florida's pre-emption law. I think the "regret" about forming an LLC is that it gave another agency a pre-text for trying to (unlawfully) regulate this guy's range. At least, that is my understanding of the situation. I could be wrong.
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Re: FL: Fearing lawsuit, regulators stop harassing private gun range owner

Postby rotor » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:30 pm

The following is a quote from the owner who named the property “Black Creek Sporting Club” and incorporated it through an LLC.

“It’s just a shell company I created for asset protection and to limit liability,” Byatt explained. “I was thinking about someday renting it out to groups, or offering camping and canoeing.”

If I interpret the above correctly that's a business and he didn't have zoning permits to run a business there. I am not against his having a gun range but if your local area requires your "business" to have a zoning permit then you get one. I interpret his actions as a business. I wonder if he has a tax id number for his business. If you are going to rent it out you are a business.


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Re: FL: Fearing lawsuit, regulators stop harassing private gun range owner

Postby Soccerdad1995 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:21 am

rotor wrote:The following is a quote from the owner who named the property “Black Creek Sporting Club” and incorporated it through an LLC.

“It’s just a shell company I created for asset protection and to limit liability,” Byatt explained. “I was thinking about someday renting it out to groups, or offering camping and canoeing.”

If I interpret the above correctly that's a business and he didn't have zoning permits to run a business there. I am not against his having a gun range but if your local area requires your "business" to have a zoning permit then you get one. I interpret his actions as a business. I wonder if he has a tax id number for his business. If you are going to rent it out you are a business.


As I understand the case, in Florida, the law states that local entities cannot regulate gun ranges, whether they are businesses or not. So the question of whether this was a business is a bit of a red herring for this case. Specifically, local government agencies cannot use zoning and code enforcement to prohibit one from operating a gun range. Worst case, they could go after him for not paying incorporation fees or business taxes, but it sounds like he followed the requirements to incorporate, and may well not have any business revenue / profits from the operation of this range. He did make some money renting guns, but that revenue was reported (and related taxes paid) through a separate business.

From my recent trip to Florida I learned that they have just as big of a problem, if not bigger, as we do with local entities flouting state gun laws. For example, in Florida, "no gun" signs of any type have no force of law, but I was warned strenuously by members of the Florida concealed carry forum that if my legal concealed carry was detected by the metal detectors / X-ray machines at the Disney parks, then they would call local LEO's, who would take you for the "ride". Apparently, this has even happened with out of state LEO's carrying under LEOSA. This whole story of this gun range sounds like the same type of situation.
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