Pennsylvania CHL Holder Arrested in New Jersey

[VMI77]

Anyone who owns a gun, and especially anyone who has a CHL, and who doesn't know about the draconian gun laws in the People's Republics like New Jersey (a state that was considered worse than a garbage pit even 40 years ago), is probably uneducable.

[VMI77]

Ultimately, just or not, as individuals we have a responsibility to educate ourselves regarding the rules and regulations related to activities in which we choose to participate. The town I work in has an ordinance on the books that states you can't make a u-turn. There aren't any signs saying you can't make a u-turn, but that argument will get you nowhere when you get pulled over because ignorance of the law is no excuse. Sucks for out of towners but that's the way it is. Fortunately that's just a ticket and not 3 yrs in jail. Back to this case, if you have any active brain cells whatsoever you have to know that you are subject to the laws of the state you are traveling in. If you don't do your homework you fail. In this case failure comes with a hefty price.

I'm with you on the personal responsibility. However, we (on this forum) spend tons of time talking about the laws of our state just to get clarity on them. We live in a big ole' state where it can take 8 hours to cross the boundaries. Up there in the NE, you can cross several boundaries in an hour... Expecting people to know the intricacies of each state's law is burdensome and isn't a realistic expectation.

We all know that ignorance is no excuse. However, in this case, as a tax payer, I'd expect some "selective" prosecution if such is allowed by law. Locking good people up because they made a simple, albeit ignorant, mistake doesn't do anyone any good.

I'm traveling by RV to Michigan this year. I looked up the reciprocity maps and know I'm OK in the vehicle all the way up to Illinois. However, in Illinois, I know that I'm "not OK" and probably spent about an hour just trying to understand what how I can legally transport weapons "outside" of my vehicle. In particular, the legal definition of "case", which all firearms must be in.. I'm not going to bother looking up what types of signs have the force of law in all those states, I'm just going to avoid the issue by abiding by all signs. But lets say that I was stopped in Illinois and was asked if the vehicle had any weapons (anywhere)? Sure seems like the smart answer would be "no". Zero penalty of lying, big penalty if you're doing it wrong.

The easiest solution is just to avoid states like Illinois and New Jersey. I've got a list of several states I'll never voluntarily set foot in, and New Jersey has been on it for 30 years, along with Connecticut, New York, and Taxxachusetts.

[VMI77]

Average cost to the state of New Jersey to incarcerate a prisoner: $28,000.

http://nicic.gov/statestats/?st=NJ

Is it really worth $84,000 of the taxpayers money to lock this woman up for a mistake that hurt no one and really shouldn't even be a crime? These people are idiots.

What do you mean it shouldn't a crime? This woman committed the worst category of crime possible in "Progressive" Amerika: an ideological crime. She not only committed thought crime, but she actually had the audacity to take responsibility for her own defense. Don't you understand Commrade, that such behavior by a prole, such an expression of individuality, requires immediate extermination backed by the full resources of the Glorious State? The individual must be extinguished for the good of the Collective Utopia. The proles must be taught a severe lesson lest they come to believe they matter as individuals and for the good of the "Collective" (or, in normal speech, for the benefit of the Ruling Class).

[gljjt]

Average cost to the state of New Jersey to incarcerate a prisoner: $28,000.

http://nicic.gov/statestats/?st=NJ

Is it really worth $84,000 of the taxpayers money to lock this woman up for a mistake that hurt no one and really shouldn't even be a crime? These people are idiots.

What do you mean it shouldn't a crime? This woman committed the worst category of crime possible in "Progressive" Amerika: an ideological crime. She not only committed thought crime, but she actually had the audacity to take responsibility for her own defense. Don't you understand Commrade, that such behavior by a prole, such an expression of individuality, requires immediate extermination backed by the full resources of the Glorious State? The individual must be extinguished for the good of the Collective Utopia. The proles must be taught a severe lesson lest they come to believe they matter as individuals and for the good of the "Collective" (or, in normal speech, for the benefit of the Ruling Class).

My apologies dear comrade. I now realize the error of my ways. I beg of you not to send me to a reeducation camp. I will re-read the manifesto tonight to ensure my future compliance for the good of the collective.

[Oldgringo]

Average cost to the state of New Jersey to incarcerate a prisoner: $28,000.

http://nicic.gov/statestats/?st=NJ

Is it really worth $84,000 of the taxpayers money to lock this woman up for a mistake that hurt no one and really shouldn't even be a crime? These people are idiots.

[Purplehood]

Why in the world would anyone expect current laws/reciprocity to be taught in a Texas CHL class?
50 states with completely different laws that constantly evolve. No way.
The class should simply say, "Look up the current laws regarding the state(s) that you plan on visiting prior to your trip".

[Keith B]

Why in the world would anyone expect current laws/reciprocity to be taught in a Texas CHL class?
50 states with completely different laws that constantly evolve. No way.
The class should simply say, "Look up the current laws regarding the state(s) that you plan on visiting prior to your trip".

It's not expected that the Texas CHL instructor teach the laws of other states; what's expected is they teach, or at least provide a list of, what states Texas has reciprocity with and THEN tell them 'Before you take your gun into another state make sure to read and understand that state's laws on possession and concealed carry.'

Not at least covering what reciprocity is and who we have it with is unacceptable for an instructor IMO.

[mojo84]

Why in the world would anyone expect current laws/reciprocity to be taught in a Texas CHL class?
50 states with completely different laws that constantly evolve. No way.
The class should simply say, "Look up the current laws regarding the state(s) that you plan on visiting prior to your trip".

My instructor discussed the general concept of reciprocity, gave a couple of examples. and pointed out some resources for research on other states laws. I thought that was fine. Now it's up to me to research and understand them before I head out of state. With that said, I still struggle some interpreting the laws correctly but that is on me and not my instructor.

[jimlongley]

Is there even the remotest possibility that this is, or could be made to be, a test case?

[cb1000rider]

Is there even the remotest possibility that this is, or could be made to be, a test case?

A test case of what? NJ has already had some fairly high profile prosecutions of people who were otherwise law-abiding and just happened to do things wrong in NJ. Here's a good reference: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/ ... s?page=120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm no legal expert, but what would help here is some sort of national "right to travel" indication that the states can't infringe on. That is, if you're carrying unloaded firearms that aren't easily accessible, the states can't necessarily restrict that. One could claim that clearly this is granted under our 2nd amendment, but apparently that isn't the case.

[VMI77]

Is there even the remotest possibility that this is, or could be made to be, a test case?

A test case of what? NJ has already had some fairly high profile prosecutions of people who were otherwise law-abiding and just happened to do things wrong in NJ. Here's a good reference: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/ ... s?page=120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm no legal expert, but what would help here is some sort of national "right to travel" indication that the states can't infringe on. That is, if you're carrying unloaded firearms that aren't easily accessible, the states can't necessarily restrict that. One could claim that clearly this is granted under our 2nd amendment, but apparently that isn't the case.

There is already a Federal Law that allow you to travel between states with weapons unloaded and locked in a gun case. States like New Jersey just ignore it. And you're not going to see any DOJ intervention under our criminal AG.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Yet another reason to steer clear of New Jersey.

[cb1000rider]

There is already a Federal Law that allow you to travel between states with weapons unloaded and locked in a gun case. States like New Jersey just ignore it. And you're not going to see any DOJ intervention under our criminal AG.

I was unaware... It would have saved me the hour I spent trying to figure out what constitutes a "gun case" in Illinois.
Here's the reference: Firearms Owners’ Protection Act, or FOPA

Details:

Under FOPA, notwithstanding any state or local law, a person is entitled to transport a firearm from any place where he or she may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he or she may lawfully possess and carry it, if the firearm is unloaded and locked out of reach. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm must be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. Ammunition that is either locked out of reach in the trunk or in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console is also covered.

And a Footnote:

Travelers should be aware that some state and local governments treat this federal provision as an “affirmative defense” that may only be raised after an arrest.

NJ Footnote:

NEW JERSEY—New Jersey has highly restrictive firearms laws. The New Jersey Supreme Court has ruled that anyone traveling within the state is deemed to be aware of these regulations and will be held strictly accountable for violations. Revell v. Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, 10-236

I assume this means that I *should* be OK as long as firearms are in locked storage that is not accessible from inside a vehicle. I also get to recognize that I can still get arrested in NJ or Illinois, if I violated state/local ordinances or am caught with the wrong "type" of weapon/ammunition.

Again, all this does is encourage me to not tell the truth if stopped in a state like that... Nothing good can come of it.

[VMI77]

There is already a Federal Law that allow you to travel between states with weapons unloaded and locked in a gun case. States like New Jersey just ignore it. And you're not going to see any DOJ intervention under our criminal AG.

I was unaware... It would have saved me the hour I spent trying to figure out what constitutes a "gun case" in Illinois.
Here's the reference: Firearms Owners’ Protection Act, or FOPA

Details:

Under FOPA, notwithstanding any state or local law, a person is entitled to transport a firearm from any place where he or she may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he or she may lawfully possess and carry it, if the firearm is unloaded and locked out of reach. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm must be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. Ammunition that is either locked out of reach in the trunk or in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console is also covered.

And a Footnote:

Travelers should be aware that some state and local governments treat this federal provision as an “affirmative defense” that may only be raised after an arrest.

NJ Footnote:

NEW JERSEY—New Jersey has highly restrictive firearms laws. The New Jersey Supreme Court has ruled that anyone traveling within the state is deemed to be aware of these regulations and will be held strictly accountable for violations. Revell v. Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, 10-236

I assume this means that I *should* be OK as long as firearms are in locked storage that is not accessible from inside a vehicle. I also get to recognize that I can still get arrested in NJ or Illinois, if I violated state/local ordinances or am caught with the wrong "type" of weapon/ammunition.

Again, all this does is encourage me to not tell the truth if stopped in a state like that... Nothing good can come of it.

I don't owe the truth to a lying government. I would assume in New Jersey you won't be ok if found with a gun even if you comply with every law on the books. The guy they put in prison had called the State Police before he left Colorado for advice about the law. He had his guns in a locked case in the back of a car that was parked on property owned by his parents. The jury didn't want to convict the guy but they were apparently too easily coerced by the "judge." He went to prison under a 5 year sentence....for what essentially amounts to nothing. Basically, he was a political prisoner. If he'd been a gang banging thug carrying a loaded handgun on the street he either wouldn't have been charged in the first place, or been let go on probation. Christie, as expedient as ever, did nothing until the case starting getting a lot of national and local publicity. New Jersey is run by the same kind of people who live in D.C. and expend vast resources to ruin the life and imprison an upstanding and productive citizen because he had an empty shotgun shell and pieces of lead in the shape of a bullet, and you're subject to their whims if you step foot in that sleaze pit. 99% of the gun laws have nothing to do with crime or safety but are all essentially political crimes.

[Jim Beaux]

The gun issue boils down to who you fear the most, the thugs or the law.