Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

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FrogFan
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Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby FrogFan » Sun May 07, 2017 10:21 pm

Hello all,

I recently went to Illinois to help my dad sell some of his guns and ended up buying a handgun from him for myself. I had anticipated that I might buy one or more of his guns, so I did some research to help me understand how to get any guns I might buy back to Texas legally. My research indicated that I needed to ship the gun from Illinois to a local FFL here in Texas, and when it arrived at the local FFL, I would pick it up, pay the FFL fee, and fill out ATF 4473. No background check would be necessary because I have a Texas LTC.

So, that's what I did. I went to an Illinois Gander Mountain to ship the gun. They took license information that I had previously obtained from my local FFL, and charged me $40. I came to find out later from my local FFL that they also independently contacted him and verified his license details before they shipped the gun to him. The gun arrived about three days later, whereupon I picked it up, paid the fee, and filled out ATF 4473. All was well, or so I thought.

Now one of my brothers is telling me I have to provide my dad with my contact details, make and model of the gun, and my Texas drivers license number (because I don't have a FOID card) to "protect" my dad, and he needs to keep this information for 10 years, in case the State of Illinois comes calling for whatever reason. It may seem like a small thing to others, but I pushed back very hard on my brother. I'm not interested in the State of Illinois having any information about me for any reason whatsoever. Frankly, my dad doesn't need "protection" unless they come calling anyway, so for my brother to say it's just for my dad, and nobody else will ever see it misses the point completely.

I'm not a lawyer, and my eyes glaze over when I read legal information, but I did try to figure out applicable Illinois law in this case and found it incomprehensible. It seems clear to me that, since I'm not an Illinois resident, I don't have to comply with their laws, and since I've complied with federal law and filled out the ATF 4473 at a Texas FFL, my dad has nothing to fear from the authorities either.

Has anyone had a similar experience? Any advice?

Thanks for any help.

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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby Keith B » Sun May 07, 2017 10:35 pm

Keep records of your transaction and the transfer via the FFL and your Dad should be fine. If the state needs the info then they can contact you for it.
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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby puma guy » Sun May 07, 2017 10:35 pm

I have purchased a couple of firearms on Gun Broker from individuals in Illinois. I think one was a handgun. I never provided anything other than my name, phone number. I had my local FFL send their info to the seller and then did the transfer when the guns arrived. Based on my experience with Illinois sellers, I think your brother is confused.
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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby rotor » Mon May 08, 2017 12:19 am

From the NRA website

A buyer is required to show his Firearms Owner’s Identification Card (FOID) when purchasing any firearms or ammunition. Any seller is required to withhold delivery of any handgun for 72 hours, and of any rifle or shotgun for 24 hours, after the buyer and seller reach an agreement to purchase a firearm. The waiting period does not apply to a buyer who is a dealer, law enforcement officer, or a nonresident at a gun show recognized by the Illinois Department of State Police. The seller must retain for 10 years a record of the transfer, including a description of the firearm (including serial number), the identity of the buyer, and the buyer’s FOID number.

If you want to protect your dad you should probably provide the info. Stupid laws but potentially a problem for your dad.

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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby Flightmare » Mon May 08, 2017 12:43 am

rotor wrote:From the NRA website

A buyer is required to show his Firearms Owner’s Identification Card (FOID) when purchasing any firearms or ammunition. Any seller is required to withhold delivery of any handgun for 72 hours, and of any rifle or shotgun for 24 hours, after the buyer and seller reach an agreement to purchase a firearm. The waiting period does not apply to a buyer who is a dealer, law enforcement officer, or a nonresident at a gun show recognized by the Illinois Department of State Police. The seller must retain for 10 years a record of the transfer, including a description of the firearm (including serial number), the identity of the buyer, and the buyer’s FOID number.

If you want to protect your dad you should probably provide the info. Stupid laws but potentially a problem for your dad.


The buyer does not have a FOID card. Since FOID cards are unique to Illinois, what would you suggest?
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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby WhoWouldGuess » Mon May 08, 2017 6:01 am

Technically, the transfer was from your father to Gander Mountain, presumably an FFL. He should maintain that record.

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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby oohrah » Mon May 08, 2017 7:36 am

You are not providing the State of Illinois anything. Only your father will have your information. You are not subject to IL law, but your father is.

The only way the ISP would come calling is if the gun was used in a crime and its ownership was somehow eventually traced back to your father.
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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby RPBrown » Mon May 08, 2017 7:54 am

WhoWouldGuess wrote:Technically, the transfer was from your father to Gander Mountain, presumably an FFL. He should maintain that record.


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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby Schleprock » Mon May 08, 2017 8:18 am

oohrah wrote:The only way the ISP would come calling is if the gun made its way back to Illinois was used in a crime in Illinois and its ownership was somehow eventually traced back to your father.
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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby FrogFan » Mon May 08, 2017 10:18 am

Thanks everyone for all the responses. I was thinking Dad should record the transfer to Gander Mountain or my local FFL. I was thinking my FFL would be the preferred approach because that's where I picked up the gun, filled out the paperwork, etc., and effectively completed the transaction, but I'm just guessing.

As I tried to puzzle through this myself, I reasoned as follows: First, federal law appears to allow intrastate gun transfers without restriction except those applied by the state itself, but federal law requires that interstate transfers be done through an FFL in the buyer's state. Illinois law imposes restrictions and record-keeping requirements on its residents so, presumably, if a resident transfers a gun to another resident, there is evidence that the buyer was legal to own it. I further reasoned that no such records are required on an interstate transfer, since it was done according to federal law, and since an ATF 4473 was filled out, the buyer was legal to own the gun; thus there could be no problem for the seller.

As was pointed out earlier, the record keeping requirement requires recording the buyer's FOID card number. The FOID card doesn't apply to me, so I reasoned again that the record keeping requirement for my dad didn't apply to me, either.

Did I mention that I'm glad I left Illinois 40 years ago?

Thanks again.


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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby rotor » Mon May 08, 2017 4:05 pm

Did you ever think that with your physical presence in Illinois maybe you were required to have an FOID to buy the gun? Just a guess on my part. You followed Federal law but the issue is whether this comes back to bite your father at any time. I don't think Gander Mountain FFL technically bought the gun, they only arranged the transfer. So glad I don't live in Illinois.

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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby ScottDLS » Mon May 08, 2017 4:24 pm

If Gander Mountain in Illinois took your FFL information and custody of the gun, then they essentially bought it from your father and they are required to keep the records of it by Federal and presumably Ill. law. They are likely exempt from the requirements of a private buyer in IL due to being a dealer. If they were supposed to keep records of your father's eligibility to sell the gun, that's their problem. Were you allowed to have a long gun in IL while taking to the dealer? Yes, I don't believe you need a FOID for a long gun that you are borrowing as an out of state resident. Title of the gun didn't pass to you until you picked it up from your dealer in Texas.
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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby rotor » Mon May 08, 2017 5:09 pm

This website is good
http://smartgunlaws.org/private-sales-in-illinois/

Probably would have been better to take the handgun as a gift rather than buying it.


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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby NNT » Mon May 08, 2017 7:41 pm

FrogFan wrote:Hello all,

...my contact details, (he has it?) make and model of the gun, (He has it?) and my Texas drivers license number (He doesn't have it but could get it pretty quickly if needed?)


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Re: Private sale of a handgun by an Illinois resident to a Texas resident

Postby FrogFan » Mon May 08, 2017 8:28 pm

Again, thank you for the responses. I appreciate them all. I think I'll talk to my dad and have him use Gander Mountain as the buyer. That seems to be the consensus among the experts here, and it makes sense on reading all the responses.

Some of you have raised points I didn't quite understand or had questions about. I've indicated them below in case there is further interest in this.

I was born and raised in Illinois. I got out when I turned 21 (42 years ago) and never looked back. But I still have family up there so I have to go there from time to time and obey their rules.


oohrah wrote:You are not providing the State of Illinois anything. Only your father will have your information. You are not subject to IL law, but your father is.


I get that. I should have posed the question more clearly. My understanding after reading everything I read was that my dad didn't need to maintain the same record for sale to an out-of-state resident.

The only way the ISP would come calling is if the gun was used in a crime and its ownership was somehow eventually traced back to your father.


Nothing that I read said that was the only way the ISP would come calling. I probably missed that somewhere. I was concerned that the ISP might happen by for some whimsical reason related to goofy Illinois law and end up getting my information in the process. I don't have anything to hide from them or anyone, but I don't want to give anything to anyone who isn't entitled to it. I'm probably being overly sensitive. And I do want to protect my dad.

Did you ever think that with your physical presence in Illinois maybe you were required to have an FOID to buy the gun?


No. FOID cards are issued to Illinois residents only. If I wanted one (I don't) I couldn't get one.

If Gander Mountain in Illinois took your FFL information and custody of the gun, then they essentially bought it from your father and they are required to keep the records of it by Federal and presumably Ill. law. They are likely exempt from the requirements of a private buyer in IL due to being a dealer. If they were supposed to keep records of your father's eligibility to sell the gun, that's their problem.


This sounds like the right answer. I note that others have said the same. I'll ensure that Dad has this information on file if the ISP or any other Illinois authority, happens by.

Were you allowed to have a long gun in IL while taking to the dealer? Yes, I don't believe you need a FOID for a long gun that you are borrowing as an out of state resident.


I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The gun I bought was a handgun. I didn't real check into the requirements for a long gun; perhaps I should have.

This website is good
http://smartgunlaws.org/private-sales-in-illinois/

Probably would have been better to take the handgun as a gift rather than buying it.


The smargunlaws site focuses on the FOID card. I don't have one and can't get one (and don't want one), so it doesn't apply to me. I wish the handgun were a gift! My dad's wife is pressing him to clean up his stuff and get rid of some of it (he's 83). He told us "kids" (I'm 63) that if we wanted some of his guns, he'd be happy to sell us some, but he wasn't giving them away, and, if we didn't want them, he'd sell them to someone who did. So, since it wasn't a gift, I didn't want to say it was.

Thanks again for the help.


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