UNT Administrator Talk/Response to CC Bills

[NorthTexas]

Just passing on the latest water cooler talk I'm hearing at UNT. I did not hear any of this first-hand, but I was told all of it directly by people who themselves heard the administrators speak and whom I trust to relay accurate, truthful information to me.

First, one of our Vice Presidents met 3-4 weeks ago with the leaders (including a friend of mine) of a campus student organization. Among other things, they discussed the campus carry bills. The VP told my friend that she did not know much about the bills but did not want them to pass. (As I've stated before, I wish we had a chapter of the SCCC here to try and educate these administrators who won't bother to educate themselves on the issue). The VP said UNT anticipated their passage and was preparing accordingly. The VP also said that, despite the bills allowing for dormitory regulation/prohibition of handgun storage, UNT did not plan to completely prohibit storage in the dorms should the bills pass. My friend did not understand the legal explanation that followed and could not cite a case for me, but seemed to think there has been some lawsuit somewhere (my friend thought it might have related to apartments, possibly not related to a university campus) regarding prohibitions on gun storage in the place where you live. Basically, as my friend understood (or misunderstood?) it, UNT is afraid of being sued if the bills pass and the dormitories completely prohibit storage of guns by CHL holders in their dorm rooms. The VP told my friend that UNT was looking in to storage options for the dormitories.

Fast forward a couple of weeks. I'm told by another friend (a dormitory director) that at a Housing meeting, administrators told dormitory directors that an option being strongly considered is placing lockers behind the front desks at each dormitory and requiring CHL holders to rent a locker and check in/out their weapon with the front desk whenever they enter/leave the building. As my friend tells me, administrators seem to think this will allow them to COMPLETELY PROHIBIT concealed carry within the dormitory building (which of course would also extend to faculty or staff working in the dorm). When I read the bills back in late January/early February, I understood them to say dorms could regulate STORAGE of weapons in the dorm, but not regulate actual concealed carry. I'd love to hear opinions of others who have read the bills. Also, if I may insert my own opinion, I think it would be very dangerous to have to unconceal one's weapon in plain sight of anyone walking in or out of the building and hand it over to someone at the front desk who might not be familiar with safe weapon handling - many dormitories at UNT employ students at their front desks who are not even old enough to legally purchase a handgun. Plus, would unconcealing one's weapon to hand it over be brandishing?

Back to what my dorm director friend heard - one of the administrators at this meeting said the UNT Housing department was asked by "the Legislature" (my guess is not the whole legislature, but an individual legislator or two who are opposed to campus carry) to complete some sort of financial impact survey indicating how much money passage of the bills would cost. (To my mind, such a legislator would argue, "Look how much money these bills will cost our universities! We can't afford this considering our current state budget crisis/rising tuition rates! etc..."). The administrator said in the meeting that Housing calculated their financial impact in the most expensive manner possible (said another way, when faced with multiple options in determining their cost they always picked the most expensive option - such as outfitting all the dorm front desks with storage lockers and hiring new employees to staff those desks 24/7 instead of less expensive options such as requiring CHL holders to live in a private room and provide their own in-room safe or making one upperclassman dorm or floor reserved for CHL holders). The administrator said in the meeting what Housing's financial impact was estimated to be, but I'm going to have to double check my memory with my friend before posting it.

My friend also stated that, in general, most of the dorm directors were very emotionally and irrationally against passage of the bills (including several individuals who are otherwise publicly pro-2A). Several did say that if the bill passed, they would get CHLs themselves (I guess it didn't click with them that, if the administrators get their way, they wouldn't be able to carry while working in the dorm and would have to secure their own weapon in a locker at the front desk while in the building). My friend said one campus carry supporter tried to rationally explain why CHL holders wouldn't be a threat but was generally ignored in favor of the fear-mongers.

[RPB]

Better solution, require any person 21 and over with a chl who lives in a dorm to buy their own gun safe to be kept in their own room. Everyone chl or not gets that as part of an agreement/policy on move-in, so if they aren't a chl, then become one ... it's already in effect for that person.

No "unconcealment" issues.

Cost, a sheet of paper per person moving into a dorm, unless they print it on a sheet of paper they already have which isn't filled yet..

I suppose they want a building addition with dressing rooms with both front and rear doors so you can't see who goes in and comes out as easily too.

Maybe they want a separate dorm built for those "over 21" who have or may get a CHL.... I'm sure LOTS of adults over 21 want a "dorm mother" telling them what to do (or whatever, ... I started college at 27 years old or so, owned a house at the time, unfamiliar with dorms)

So, I'm sure the new CHL dorm for 21-50 year olds will have people waiting in line to get in.
I bet if it's a co-ed dorm, the girls will just love my 56 year old gray-bearded self. I'll make my reservation right away. (How do I make a toga? Guess I'll need to sell my house first ...)

[NorthTexas]

The administrator said in the meeting what Housing's financial impact was estimated to be, but I'm going to have to double check my memory with my friend before posting it.

Double-checked with my friend; friend said the administrator said Housing reported back to "the Legislature" that the bills would cost an estimated $750,000 over five years to the Housing department (largely in salaries and benefits I believe, to have front desks manned 24/7 as previously mentioned).

[RPB]

lockers at the bus station don't cost $750,000 in salaries ..... sheesh.

insert money, get key.

What do they need a manned front desk for? They won't know what visitors are armed anyway.

Wait, do we get TSA massages/rubdowns included in that?

[NorthTexas]

I suppose they want a building addition with dressing rooms with both front and rear doors so you can't see who goes in and comes out as easily too.

Please, no, don't give them any more bad ideas!

Maybe they want a separate dorm built for those "over 21" who have or may get a CHL.... I'm sure LOTS of adults over 21 want a "dorm mother" telling them what to do (or whatever, ... I started college at 27 years old or so, owned a house at the time, unfamiliar with dorms)

Your suggestion is right, there aren't likely to be very many CHL holders who want to live on campus (in my opinion, that makes the whole "install lockers and hire more staff" idea even more wasteful). There are a ton of off-campus apartments and houses available for rent nearby, so I can't really see a CHL holder wanting to go through the hassle of living on-campus if those regulations are put into effect.

[baldeagle]

First all, students live in the dorms as freshman and sophomores. Many have moved out by the junior year and most have by the senior year. And the vast majority of those will not be 21 anyway. So the impact to dormitories will be minimal at best. Secondly, the language of the proposed bills addresses storage only, not carrying in the dorms.

HB 750

(d) An institution of higher education or private or independent institution of higher education in this state may establish rules, regulations, or other provisions concerning the storage of handguns in dormitories that are owned or operated by the institution and located on the campus of the institution.

SB 354

(d) An institution of higher education or private or independent institution of higher education in this state may establish rules, regulations, or other provisions concerning the storage of handguns in dormitories or other residential buildings that are owned or operated by the institution and located on the campus of the institution.

So I doubt that the universities could require that CHL holders turn in their guns at the door, although IANAL and someone else might have a different interpretation. IMO storage addresses when you are not carrying, not when you are.

[RPB]

storage addresses when you are not carrying, not when you are.

Good point since I sleep with an IWB single stack slim 9mm, I'd still be carrying while snoring, not needing storing while snoring

Well, ok, I could store my Glock 26 and XD45 till morning I suppose.

[NorthTexas]

lockers at the bus station don't cost $750,000 in salaries ..... sheesh.

insert money, get key.

What do they need a manned front desk for? They won't know what visitors are armed anyway.

Wait, do we get TSA massages/rubdowns included in that?

As I understand it, their plan is to have CHL holders check in the handgun at the front desk, and the staff member will lock it into a locker behind the desk. Retrieval would work the same way. Therefore, according to their plan, all of the dorm front desks would need to be staffed 24/7. I don't know WHY they need to do it that way; perhaps because they trust their employees (who are likely unfamiliar with guns) more than a trained CHL holder? Or perhaps just because that was the most expensive way to respond to the survey requested by the legislature? I do think we'll be hearing that number again in the future from some legislator who is against the bills.

[RPB]

trust their employees (who are likely unfamiliar with guns) more than a trained CHL holder?

That could get interesting real fast if they tried to plop a 17/18/19/20 year old college work study student behind a front desk who couldn't buy a handgun.

[JJVP]

I think the issue of college housing is much to do about nothing. Less than 20% of college students live on campus and the great majority are freshman and sophomores, which means they are less than 21 and do not qualify for CHL. Of the handful of 21 yr olds that might live on campus, how many would have CHL's? I would bet that at most you'll have one or two CHL's living on campus housing on any particular campus, if that many.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=351783" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lets do the math:

A college with 50,000 students
20% = 10,000 students living on campus
If you assume that seniors are 15% of the college population = 1,500 seniors.
Assuming that 10% of seniors live on campus = 150 seniors
Assuming that 2% of seniors have CHL's (same percentage as the general population) = 3 CHL's living on campus.

[NorthTexas]

First all, students live in the dorms as freshman and sophomores. Many have moved out by the junior year and most have by the senior year. And the vast majority of those will not be 21 anyway. So the impact to dormitories will be minimal at best.

Right, I do understand that. My interest relates more to the faculty and staff who work or live in the dorms and are of legal age to get a CHL - UNT has both (but, yes, in small numbers). Also, I figure this kind of insight on administrators' general lack of knowledge of the bills and their current plans might (hopefully) be helpful for the folks fighting for passage of the bills.

Secondly, the language of the proposed bills addresses storage only, not carrying in the dorms.

HB 750

(d) An institution of higher education or private or independent institution of higher education in this state may establish rules, regulations, or other provisions concerning the storage of handguns in dormitories that are owned or operated by the institution and located on the campus of the institution.

SB 354

(d) An institution of higher education or private or independent institution of higher education in this state may establish rules, regulations, or other provisions concerning the storage of handguns in dormitories or other residential buildings that are owned or operated by the institution and located on the campus of the institution.

So I doubt that the universities could require that CHL holders turn in their guns at the door, although IANAL and someone else might have a different interpretation. IMO storage addresses when you are not carrying, not when you are.

That was also my interpretation of the bills (likewise, IANAL), I'm glad to hear I'm not alone in reading them that way.

[RPB]

So, "chls living in dorms" = about the same number of people who rent a towel at the local swimming pool instead of bringing their own ...

[NorthTexas]

trust their employees (who are likely unfamiliar with guns) more than a trained CHL holder?

That could get interesting real fast if they tried to plop a 17/18/19/20 year old college work study student behind a front desk who couldn't buy a handgun.

My point exactly!

[RPB]

trust their employees (who are likely unfamiliar with guns) more than a trained CHL holder?

That could get interesting real fast if they tried to plop a 17/18/19/20 year old college work study student behind a front desk who couldn't buy a handgun.

My point exactly!

Hey, John Woods is 30-ish, his income from "students for gun free schools" might diminish, perhaps he could get part time work behind the desk?

[baldeagle]

The administrator said in the meeting what Housing's financial impact was estimated to be, but I'm going to have to double check my memory with my friend before posting it.

Double-checked with my friend; friend said the administrator said Housing reported back to "the Legislature" that the bills would cost an estimated $750,000 over five years to the Housing department (largely in salaries and benefits I believe, to have front desks manned 24/7 as previously mentioned).

Unfortunately for them the LBB thought differently.

No significant fiscal implication to the State is anticipated.

Edited to add: in these difficult financial times, I can almost guarantee you that although they may estimate the cost at $750,000, when push comes to shove they are not going to allocate that kind of money. They have much more important things to do with $750,000 than spend it on gun safes and 24/7 security when so few would ever use them. They'll take the cheapest way out, which means they will require that students who have CHLs and live in the dorm must provide their own safe. They may even go as far as to specify the type, make and/or model of safe that is "approved" for use in the dorm - at which point the students will simply opt to live elsewhere. Humans are interesting creatures. They always act in their own self-interest. When authorities try to make things difficult for them, they will simply find another way to solve their problem that circumvents the authority's "good" intentions or avoids the excessive costs associated with compliance.