Church Security after Sep 1

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thatguyoverthere
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Church Security after Sep 1

Postby thatguyoverthere » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:13 pm

So we got the change that we wanted in the last legislative session exempting churches from the requirement to have certified LEO or security officers provide church security, thus allowing churches to use un-certified volunteer personnel as church security, effective September 1, 2017. That's a good thing in my book.

Now a dumb question: are LTC'ers prohibited from carrying and/or using their firearms while acting as volunteer church security?

I have not been able to find anything in the law that says they are prohibited from doing so, so I think LTC'ers would not be prohibited from carrying while on that volunteer security duty. But I ask the question because I have spoken to some other LTC'ers who believe they ARE prohibited from having/using their firearm in that capacity (but have been unable to cite the specific chapter and sub-paragraph that says that).

On a side note, I do find it interesting, however, that the particular pre-paid legal service that I subscribe to which covers defensive firearm use specifically states that they do NOT provide services to a plan participant who ends up actually using a firearm for defense in this particular capacity of volunteer security. But of course, having no "insurance coverage" for an act is totally different from that act being legal or not.

So how about it. Am I totally missing something here?

Not asking for legal opinions or counsel, just asking for personal opinions from private citizens. Thanks! :txflag:


crazy2medic
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Re: Church Security after Sep 1

Postby crazy2medic » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:33 pm

In my OPINION, I would think if the Church allows you to go about armed then you should be OK carrying in whatever manner the church is comfortable with, second I believe that you should provide armed security for the church so long as it is intended to prevent a massacre or for your personal safety. If however you should encounter somebody that is being less than cordial and getting heated around the collar local law enforcement should be called at the first sign things are gonna get ugly!
My opinion, IANAL but that is my view!
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If you ain't paranoid you ain't paying attention

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rtschl
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Re: Church Security after Sep 1

Postby rtschl » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:46 pm

thatguyoverthere wrote:
Now a dumb question: are LTC'ers prohibited from carrying and/or using their firearms while acting as volunteer church security?

Short answer: No.

The whole point of the legislation was to exempt churches from the occupation code that required licensed security. If the legislature wanted to "disarm" volunteers organizing to protect their church they would have left the law as it was.

This is pretty plain language. Places of religious worship do not apply to the occupation code for 1702 (Security). So you can't be paid, wear a badge or uniform to look like LEO, security, or PPO or use the word security...

Sec. 1702.333. PLACE OF RELIGIOUS WORSHIP; CERTAIN
VOLUNTEERS. (a) In this section, "volunteer security services"
means services or activities that are:
(1) regulated under this chapter; and
(2) provided without compensation or remuneration.
(b) This chapter does not apply to a person who is providing
volunteer security services on the premises of a church, synagogue,
or other established place of religious worship.
(c) While providing volunteer security services under
Subsection (b), a person may not wear a uniform or badge that:
(1) contains the word "security"; or
(2) gives the person the appearance of being a peace
officer, personal protection officer, or security officer.


No mention regarding firearms whatsoever.
Ron
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thatguyoverthere
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Re: Church Security after Sep 1

Postby thatguyoverthere » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:00 pm

Thanks for the replies, guys. Sorry I haven't responded sooner, but I don't get to log on very often.

crazy2medic wrote:In my OPINION, I would think if the Church allows you to go about armed then you should be OK carrying in whatever manner the church is comfortable with, second I believe that you should provide armed security for the church so long as it is intended to prevent a massacre or for your personal safety. If however you should encounter somebody that is being less than cordial and getting heated around the collar local law enforcement should be called at the first sign things are gonna get ugly!
My opinion, IANAL but that is my view!

crazy2medic, yes, we have the ok with our small church. We are not posted 30.06 or 30.07 and the pastor knows about (and is ok with) several of us routinely carrying during services, and that we are planning on continuing to do so once we take up our volunteer security duties after Sep 1. So we're good there with the church leaders. And you are exactly right. The firearm would come out ONLY in defense of self or others only if confronted with an imminent threat of deadly force or serious bodily injury. Anything less that those type situations, and no one will know that I (we) are armed.

rtschl wrote:...The whole point of the legislation was to exempt churches from the occupation code that required licensed security. If the legislature wanted to "disarm" volunteers organizing to protect their church they would have left the law as it was.
... No mention regarding firearms whatsoever.

Thanks rtschl. Yes, I'm familiar with the Occupational Code amendment, and it is very simple and straightforward (surprisingly!).

What I'm trying to verify is that there is no prohibition in the other CHL-relevent laws (chapter 411, PC chapter 9, etc.) against carrying while acting as volunteer security, whether in a church or as part of a neighborhood watch or any other similar situation where I am providing volunteer security on behalf of someone other than just myself. I have not been able to find any such prohibition, but I have friends who seem to think that there is one ("in there somewhere").

Thanks again.

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rtschl
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Re: Church Security after Sep 1

Postby rtschl » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:55 pm

thatguyoverthere wrote:Thanks rtschl. Yes, I'm familiar with the Occupational Code amendment, and it is very simple and straightforward (surprisingly!).

What I'm trying to verify is that there is no prohibition in the other CHL-relevent laws (chapter 411, PC chapter 9, etc.) against carrying while acting as volunteer security, whether in a church or as part of a neighborhood watch or any other similar situation where I am providing volunteer security on behalf of someone other than just myself. I have not been able to find any such prohibition, but I have friends who seem to think that there is one ("in there somewhere").

Thanks again.


Thatguyoverthere, That which I highlighted in red would be a problem as you cannot provide volunteer security in any of those situations except regular place of worship starting this fall unless you are licensed by the state and employed and contracted to do so by a licensed security company. A neighborhood watch has not been defined as security that I know of - just observing and calling the police - not batman. I know several people who are in neighborhood watches and they carry.

Example: Supervising neighborhood kids going to the mall is not providing "volunteer security" - it's being a parent and neighbor. You would just happened to be armed. So no issue in situations like that. But say you were "patroling" a business for a buddy - then yeah - you might run afoul of being unlicensed security. It depends on what you mean "on behalf of someone other than just myself" and the circumstances of it.
Ron
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mccloven27
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Re: Church Security after Sep 1

Postby mccloven27 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:48 am

What your friend is probably getting confused is the fact that when working under occupation code 1702 (as security) you cannot use your LTC. For example when I am working under my Commisioned license as security for my company my LTC is not considered valid. This prevents a Non-Commisioned officer (or level 2) from carrying a weapon and prevents a Commisioned (or level 3) from carrying a concealed weapon. However due to the fact that you are not working under a security license this rule SHOULD'NT apply. If I am correct the new legislation simply exempts churches from the rule that prohibits someone (whether licensed or not) from working (or in this case volunteering) without a security company in between them and the client. Or in simple terms even if you are licensed it is currently illegal to provide security work (compensated or not) unless you are employed by a legal security company. In the same way that a licensed peace officer does not have police authority unless they are working for a law enforcement agency.

As always I'm no lawyer and this is not legal advice, just this peon's interpretation of that there legal speak.


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