Gun Buster Signs

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rotor
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Gun Buster Signs

Postby rotor » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:01 pm

We always hear about such signs and regardless about what DPS is instructing, what exactly is a gun buster sign and what legal status does it hold?

Is it a "No Weapons Allowed" which would include knives? Is it a "No Firearms" which I guess would include long guns and handguns? Is it a pistol with a slash through it which to me means nothing without some wording to it?

I am not asking about 30.06/07 which is well defined but signs that are meant to prohibit something for non-LTC holders or other weapons that a license holder might carry.

So, if you saw a "No Weapons Sign" while carrying your trusty 1911 and a knife would you dump the knife? Do so called gun buster signs have any legal "no trespassing" status that carrying for example a knife beyond a no weapons sign could get one "the ride"? How about a rifle past a "No Firearms? sign? Anyone make anything of the Beretta/slash sign with no wording?


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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby skeathley » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:26 pm

"Gun-buster" refers to the gun in a circle, the intl symbol for no guns. By itself, it has no legal status in Texas. "No guns", "no weapons", "no firearms", etc. are all non-conforming signs, and have no force of law in Texas, including with knives. If you have an LTC, you can ignore all such signs that are not 30.06 or 30.07. This assumes the location is not already off limits by statute.

Any business or property owner who perceives that you are armed can ask you to leave, and that does have the force of law. You can be arrested for refusing to leave.

If you ignore non-conforming signs while open carrying, you have just invited them to ask you to leave. That is one reason that more people don't OC.

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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby crazy2medic » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:26 pm

Interesting subject, last year I called a loan company for a loan, talked with a woman and made arrangements to come to their office to sign the loan agreement, pulled up to the business and there on their door was a gun buster sign, my thought was this will be interesting, I open carry everywhere, so I decided let's see what happens, went in past the gun buster sign on the door, stood in the front entry way, there were three ladies there and the one I assumed to be the manager steps forward and asks if she can help me, I referenced the phone conversation about the loan and she lead me to her office, did the paperwork and left with a check, nothing was ever said about the 1911 on my left hip!
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby oljames3 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:36 pm

crazy2medic wrote:Interesting subject, last year I called a loan company for a loan, talked with a woman and made arrangements to come to their office to sign the loan agreement, pulled up to the business and there on their door was a gun buster sign, my thought was this will be interesting, I open carry everywhere, so I decided let's see what happens, went in past the gun buster sign on the door, stood in the front entry way, there were three ladies there and the one I assumed to be the manager steps forward and asks if she can help me, I referenced the phone conversation about the loan and she lead me to her office, did the paperwork and left with a check, nothing was ever said about the 1911 on my left hip!

:iagree:
I also carry openly as my default method. My experience with gun-buster signs has been the same. I have not been asked to leave, but would do so promptly if I were asked.
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Abraham
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby Abraham » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:02 pm

crazy2medic and oljames3,

You wild and crazy gun nuts.

I admire you both!!!!!!

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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby Pawpaw » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:17 pm

crazy2medic wrote:Interesting subject, last year I called a loan company for a loan, talked with a woman and made arrangements to come to their office to sign the loan agreement, pulled up to the business and there on their door was a gun buster sign, my thought was this will be interesting, I open carry everywhere, so I decided let's see what happens, went in past the gun buster sign on the door, stood in the front entry way, there were three ladies there and the one I assumed to be the manager steps forward and asks if she can help me, I referenced the phone conversation about the loan and she lead me to her office, did the paperwork and left with a check, nothing was ever said about the 1911 on my left hip!

That just proves that even the anti-gun crowd don't worry when they see you're carrying on the wrong side. :biggrinjester:
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby Abraham » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:23 pm

I also wonder if: They're just oblivious, or too intimidated to say anything or simply assume anyone with the audacity to OC MUST be Law Enforcement?


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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby crazy2medic » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:11 pm

Abraham wrote:I also wonder if: They're just oblivious, or too intimidated to say anything or simply assume anyone with the audacity to OC MUST be Law Enforcement?

Maybe it's "Don't make him mad, he might be nuts"
Government, like fire is a dangerous servant and a fearful master
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby srothstein » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:16 pm

skeathley wrote:"Gun-buster" refers to the gun in a circle, the intl symbol for no guns. By itself, it has no legal status in Texas. "No guns", "no weapons", "no firearms", etc. are all non-conforming signs, and have no force of law in Texas, including with knives.


I disagree on this. The signs are legal in Texas and can be enforced. They are not applicable to a person with an LTC carrying a pistol, but are all legal under Penal Code section 30.05 for everyone else or for other weapons.

The gun buster sign would apply to me, for example, when I am carrying under my retired peace officer ID. 30.06/07 does not apply since I am not a licensed carrier and they only apply to people with an LTC. It would not apply to an active peace officer, but I do not have the exemption under 30.05 that they do. It is a warning that I am not allowed to enter with a firearm, which is all 30.05 requires.

A "no weapons" sign would technically apply to a licensed person with a knife. Note that 30.05 applies to you for anything other than carrying a pistol you are licensed to carry. These are enforceable. I will freely stipulate that it makes no sense at all to me to ban a person for carrying a knife when he also has a legal pistol, but that is the way the law works. Your only hope might be to argue that the knife in question was not a weapon, but a tool used for specific purposes.

I don't think any of these will ever come up because i have some faith in police officers using common sense when applying the law. But, I wanted to point out that the law is there and what I think it means anyway. You might meet up with one of those officers who take a strict interpretation of the law. When that happens, you have lost when you are booked, even if you win the court case later.
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby rotor » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:29 pm

srothstein wrote:
skeathley wrote:"Gun-buster" refers to the gun in a circle, the intl symbol for no guns. By itself, it has no legal status in Texas. "No guns", "no weapons", "no firearms", etc. are all non-conforming signs, and have no force of law in Texas, including with knives.


I disagree on this. The signs are legal in Texas and can be enforced. They are not applicable to a person with an LTC carrying a pistol, but are all legal under Penal Code section 30.05 for everyone else or for other weapons.



What would be enforced? What are the size requirements? What other weapons? What percentage of the sign needs to be red? Does the sign have to have specific borders like in Illinois? How about long guns? How does the public know what a Beretta in a red circle with a slash specifically means? I know this has no effect on LTC holders but how about a gun owner bringing a gun into a hotel room where such a sign is posted outside? Especially if there is no wording on the sign. This can be enforced by law enforcement?


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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby twomillenium » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:52 pm

I figured the gun buster sign meant that the business does not sell guns! That is why I never asked to see them.
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby ScottDLS » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:39 pm

rotor wrote:
srothstein wrote:
skeathley wrote:"Gun-buster" refers to the gun in a circle, the intl symbol for no guns. By itself, it has no legal status in Texas. "No guns", "no weapons", "no firearms", etc. are all non-conforming signs, and have no force of law in Texas, including with knives.


I disagree on this. The signs are legal in Texas and can be enforced. They are not applicable to a person with an LTC carrying a pistol, but are all legal under Penal Code section 30.05 for everyone else or for other weapons.



What would be enforced? What are the size requirements? What other weapons? What percentage of the sign needs to be red? Does the sign have to have specific borders like in Illinois? How about long guns? How does the public know what a Beretta in a red circle with a slash specifically means? I know this has no effect on LTC holders but how about a gun owner bringing a gun into a hotel room where such a sign is posted outside? Especially if there is no wording on the sign. This can be enforced by law enforcement?


:iagree:

In order to be convicted of trespass under 30.05 you would have to be given notice that your entrance to the property was prohibited. I don't know how a sign with a circle slash pictogram meets that requirement. Particularly in a location open to the public. I am aware that 22 years ago AG Morales gave an opinion that 30.05 could be used to exclude handgun carriers, presumably licensed or otherwise, via a sign. No specification was given for the sign in the opinion, so I'm not sure where the idea of a pictogram came from. As far as I can tell there is no other evidence of 30.05 being enforced without explicit notice given that your entry was prohibited, not to be inferred from a list of rules or desires or a cartoon.

Anyway, I've always thought the opinion was dubious, especially since as written it would have applied to active peace officers whether on duty or not. But regardless, it became moot 2 years later in 1997 when 30.06 was passed. The form for excluding handgun carry was then explicitly specified. It actually wasn't until 2003 that the exclusion for CHL and LEO was added to 30.05, though in my opinion it wasn't necessary as related to SIGNS.
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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby srothstein » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:39 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
rotor wrote:
srothstein wrote:
skeathley wrote:"Gun-buster" refers to the gun in a circle, the intl symbol for no guns. By itself, it has no legal status in Texas. "No guns", "no weapons", "no firearms", etc. are all non-conforming signs, and have no force of law in Texas, including with knives.


I disagree on this. The signs are legal in Texas and can be enforced. They are not applicable to a person with an LTC carrying a pistol, but are all legal under Penal Code section 30.05 for everyone else or for other weapons.



What would be enforced? What are the size requirements? What other weapons? What percentage of the sign needs to be red? Does the sign have to have specific borders like in Illinois? How about long guns? How does the public know what a Beretta in a red circle with a slash specifically means? I know this has no effect on LTC holders but how about a gun owner bringing a gun into a hotel room where such a sign is posted outside? Especially if there is no wording on the sign. This can be enforced by law enforcement?


:iagree:

In order to be convicted of trespass under 30.05 you would have to be given notice that your entrance to the property was prohibited. I don't know how a sign with a circle slash pictogram meets that requirement. Particularly in a location open to the public. I am aware that 22 years ago AG Morales gave an opinion that 30.05 could be used to exclude handgun carriers, presumably licensed or otherwise, via a sign. No specification was given for the sign in the opinion, so I'm not sure where the idea of a pictogram came from. As far as I can tell there is no other evidence of 30.05 being enforced without explicit notice given that your entry was prohibited, not to be inferred from a list of rules or desires or a cartoon.

Anyway, I've always thought the opinion was dubious, especially since as written it would have applied to active peace officers whether on duty or not. But regardless, it became moot 2 years later in 1997 when 30.06 was passed. The form for excluding handgun carry was then explicitly specified. It actually wasn't until 2003 that the exclusion for CHL and LEO was added to 30.05, though in my opinion it wasn't necessary as related to SIGNS.


Allow me to explain my logic please. It really makes the beauty of the 30.06/07 law more clear and something to be thankful for.

Criminal Trespass is a violation of the law under section 30.05. That law says that if you enter onto any property without the effective consent of the owner you have violated the law. The lack of effective consent may be communicated orally or by printed sign or in a few other specific means (such as a fence designed to keep animals in or people out). Please note that there is no law requiring the notice to have any specific format. In many cases under the law, the notification may be something fairly obscure. One example that people may not be aware of is a purple stripe painted on a fence post or even a tree. It has a few specific rules, such as height and width, but how many Texans are aware of the purple stripe law. And note that this actually applies anywhere in Texas. A purple stripe painted 1000 feet apart in a city means the entry is forbidden. That may not be known or clear to the visitor but it applies.

The law may be unclear on what is required. For example, it specifies a fence obviously designed to keep livestock in or intruders out. If I have a plot of land that is 10 acres in size and plain pasture so you can see the whole thing and it is completely empty, is a three rail pipe fence designed to keep livestock in or intruders out? When there are no livestock on the land? But the law applies.

And finally, the law says a sign posted that is reasonably likely to come tot he attention of a visitor is notice. It has no requirements for size or specific wording or coloration. So any sign would apply. The good thing is that it doesn't apply to a person with an LTC or a current peace officer if the reason is a gun.

So any sign that tells me that entry is forbidden would apply to me. And, the whole concept of the red circle with a slash is that it is an internationally recognized symbol that whatever is contained in the circle is forbidden. Do you really think the court would buy that you thought it only applied to the specific make or style of pistol in the circle? I think they would extend it to any pistol at all and I bet the owner would say that is what he intended. What about a sign that said "No Weapons" in plain English? I would bet the court would include any knives, even the one inch blade folding Swiss army knife that I would never consider using as a weapon. They would also probably say it included the club I used to carry too, along with my Taser and OC spray.

And this is why people with an LTC owe so much to the TSRA, in my opinion. In other states, these very laws and signs we disparage and question still apply to licensed carriers too. They are regularly enforced by law enforcement there, and in Texas for things other than a licensed person with a pistol. Only in Texas (as far as I know) do we have such specific rules on what constitutes notice and how it must be posted with minimum size requirements and specific wording. If it is because you are carrying a gun, you do not need to worry about the vagueness of 30.05. And you do not need to worry about Dan Morales' opinion that was written when 30.05 did apply to licensed carriers. But it still would apply to people who are carrying that do not have a license.

As I said, I doubt we will see it anytime soon, especially since I trust the police to use common sense, but the law does apply as written still. And it says for non-licensed carriers, any sign does stop them from carrying a pistol And it still would apply to any person carrying a knife if it says no weapons.
Steve Rothstein


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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby treadlightly » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:05 pm

So a gun buster sign is legal, but only applies to people already prohibited from carrying firearms?

Not trying to pop off, just trying to see what use a gun buster sign has. I generally go elsewhere because I figured there's other baggage going along with the anti-gun nonsense, but I also feel the "mail not addressed to me" attitude makes some sense, too.


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Re: Gun Buster Signs

Postby rotor » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:42 pm

The purple paint law is well described in the statute so there is little question about what was intended. The red circle slash sign though has iso-standards for what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in a sign just like 30.06/07 have standards in size, block letters, etc. There is no description in the Texas code of what an acceptable red circle/slash gun sign should be or even an expectation of what it should mean. The TABC red sign does not use the red circle slash gun sign. They also use specific language and refer only to handguns. Illinois has a state approved downloadable gun buster sign that must be followed exactly to be valid just like Texas 30.06/07 must be followed exactly.
I can accept a No Weapons sign as valid in Texas. I just don't accept a non worded red circle slash sign with a gun as valid. Even the Illinois one has their legislative code number printed on it. The iso-standards for these red circle signs are proprietary and you have to buy the listing to even see what their signs are.
Texas does use some of the red circle signs for traffic such as the no left turn sign and these apparently are universal traffic signs (iso-standard) but I could find no reference to a red circle slash handgun (Beretta or otherwise). As far as the traffic signs, you are tested on the meaning when you get a drivers license so these are "common knowledge". Put a gun in the sign instead of a left turn does not automatically mean no firearms, handguns, or long guns allowed.


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