Search found 16 matches

by talltex
Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:05 am
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

Reading Police Chief William Heim told the Reading Eagle the federal agencies are trying to see what can be done about crashes and injuries, and the swabs were not to get DNA samples but to test for the presence of prescription drugs. He said police were there for site security only and did not pull drivers over or ask questions."In the grand scheme of things, I think it's a pretty innocuous and minor issue," Heim said.
Gee...that sure looks like an ordinary public roadway...well, except for all those traffic cones blocking off part of it...and that temporary STOP sign placed at the intersection...where the normal traffic lights have been turned off...and those pole mounted floodlights...oh, and those off-duty police officers wearing their duty belts with firearms prominently displayed... one of them leaning over to the window and speaking, but not asking any questions, of the person driving the car, which he didn't stop.
;-)
by talltex
Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:05 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

texanjoker wrote:They would be different situations and wouldn't happen. I don't know of any legal authority to block a road and force one into a BK parking lot nor could I see an agency approving that. One has to obtain agency approval to work off duty gigs. As I have stated in this case, do the feds have authority to do this? This was a federal survey with a federal agency running it. We don't know the leo's roll. True they may have actually done this by blocking the road and actually directing people into the parking lot, but it would boil down to if the feds had the authority to do this with their federal mandate for this survey. If that was the case the leo's would be working under that mandate. If they lied to the PD and said they had this authority when they didn't then they should be spanked hard. I have worked details with the feds in the past at the port of entry and check points. When you work those details you are working under their authority which is a lot different then a regular leo's authority. Regardless I personally think this is a waste of tax payer money.
As I have stated in a post earlier on this page in response to your previous post saying that this was done by a federal agency under a federal mandate: The survey was set up and operated by a PRIVATE CONTRACTOR who was awarded an $8 million bid by the NHTSA to conduct the surveys. The survey was conducted by the Pacific Research Institute, a private company in Maryland, that operates for a profit. That is not a "federal agency", and they have no official authority...that's why they clearly state in their proposal that they will hire off-duty officers to facilitate the necessary traffic diversions. There was no public mandate to either the Federal Government or the NHTSA on this...it was simply one of thousands of federal contracts being bid on every day by companies that make their money from federal contracts supplying goods and services to the government.
by talltex
Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:52 am
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

texanjoker wrote: The PD will look into it and nobody has answered whether or not the federal agency in question (not a private agency) has the authority do block a roadway.
Let me ask you this. Let's assume they are blocking a roadway for a federal agency doing a mandated survey and you believe they should be fired. How is this different then the 100s of leo's that block traffic for churches on Sundays? They interfere with public roadways to help at a religious event for private churches. Should they be fired as well? Where does it stop?
A couple of points...it WAS done for a private company. The FWPD was hired a private contractor who was awarded an $8 million contract by the NHTSA to conduct surveys. Way back in this thread, there was a link to the survey done by Pacific Research Institute (a PRIVATE contractor) located in Maryland (DC) which outlined in great detail exactly how they conducted the survey. In it they stated they would hire off-duty officers to facilitate the diversion of traffic into the parking lot. It even detailed how the vehicles diverted would be selected, such as: the first vehicle diverted would be the 3rd one to approach the diversion point once the officer and vehicles were in place and one of the survey crew signaled the officers to begin...after that each time the crew member signaled, they were to divert the next vehicle in line. As for your last example, I've already stated my opinion earlier...I don't think that blocking traffic for Churches, or any other private business, should be allowed either. That's simply another case of a private entity, paying for the use of official authority, in order to receive a special privilege, that they are not entitled to, and cannot achieve otherwise. Personally, I've never said I thought they should be fired...I just think this practice should be stopped.
by talltex
Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:28 am
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

cb1000rider wrote:
Oldgringo wrote:HORSEFEATHERS! If they were in uniform and using marked city police cars, they were on duty!
I think "on duty" as more to do with who is forking over the payroll than what they are wearing and what they are driving... I'll let the LEOs detail their departmental policy on car use and uniform policy on/off duty. Think an "off duty" LEO can't pull you over in his/her own unmarked car while wearing Magnum PI shorts and issue a citation? Think again. :-)
I understand the point you are making...that they still have the same authority regardless of who is paying them, but that is exactly what I think is wrong...they are being paid to use official vehicles while wearing uniforms, giving the appearance of being on duty, to accomplish the goals of a private company that is paying for that impression. To anyone that disagrees, have them park their personal vehicle in the roadway and try to divert traffic in their civilian clothes and see how that works out. An off duty officer may have the legal authority to pull me over, in an unmarked vehicle wearing shorts and tee shirt, but it will be difficult, because unless I see an official looking vehicle with official looking lights flashing, I'll most likely ignore it.
by talltex
Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:40 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

texanjoker wrote:
It is rather concerning that people believe everything they read in the liberal media. One would think people would want factual information vs jumping on the bandwagon without proof of any wrong doing. Just a thought, but the same liberal media thinks Obama is the greatest thing to happen to the US. Does that mean we are surrounded by Obama supporters? :tiphat:
Come on now...what does the liberal media have to do with this, and why throw Obama's name into it ? No one with the department has denied any part of the story...in fact they have apologized for citizens being "inconvenienced" and the Chief said they would look more closely at any future arrangements to see that they didn't have officers providing assistance to projects that might not be in the best interest of the public. What factual information do you think the media has withheld that would change the current perception? :totap:
by talltex
Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:22 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

stevem wrote: This will never happen, it's de facto personnel funding for most departments. Allows them to pay officers poorly by subsidizing their "off-duty" security job with use of the car etc.

What needs to happen is better guidance and oversight of what jobs are appropriately "subsidized", and frankly the officers involved in this incident need to be disciplined as an example to others of what not to do. I'd like to see the TX AG come out with a position letter against this too. Bad judgment itself should have consequences, even if minor, not a complete whitewash in the name of "it didn't turn out too bad".
I agree that the departments need to take a hard look at what type of jobs they are hiring the off-duty officers out to do, but I don't think you can discipline or fire the officers for doing a job that the FWPD contracted to do. The federal contractor working for the NHTSA contacted the FWPD's traffic division and arranged to hire the off duty officers, and that's where the fault lies...I doubt that the supervisor that arranged it ever really looked at exactly what all the job entailed...just thought," it's for the NHTSA so it's fine".
by talltex
Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:08 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

Right2Carry wrote:Let me see if I understand this correctly. The LEO's did nothing wrong yet they FORCED innocent civilians who were doing no wrong off the roadway into a parking lot to participate in a voluntary survey? I am unclear how FORCING motorists into a parking lot by LEO without probable cause or reasonable suspicion isn't some sort civil rights violation. These individuals were DIRECTED by LEO off the roadway into a parking lot to be SOLICITED by some type of government entity. However you cut this it appears to be an abuse of power by the LEO's involved and a full investigation should be initiated into those individuals who authorized this illegal activity under the pretense of a survey.
I don't think they actually FORCED anyone off the road against their will...but I think it is definitely a form of COERCION, just because they are Police Officers standing there...by Patrol vehicles, with flashing lights, motioning certain drivers to divert from the traffic flow. In most cases, no one is going to stop in the road and start questioning if they have the authority to do so...because the public has been told for years that they should "never argue with a Police Officer, just do what they tell you". That's the whole point of the Contractor hiring the off duty Officers to divert traffic...they know people will comply, just as they know most people would ignore them and drive on by if THEY stood on the side of the road with a sign ASKING for volunteers.
by talltex
Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:17 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

sjfcontrol wrote:Hmmm... This gives me an idea! I want to hire a few off-duty McKinney cops to redirect traffic into a parking lot where I'll ask the drivers to volunteer to listen to a sales pitch for my CHL classes. Should be OK, right?
:thumbs2: I thought about that possibilty also...have traffic pulled into my parking lot so the salespeople could interview them about any purchase plans they were considering...probably be alot cheaper than direct mail, billboards and tv/radio spots...and more effective!
by talltex
Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:03 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

Oldgringo wrote:Ease up, guys. Rather than belittle each other, let's ponder how it feels to be "stoped". Does it hurt or what, anybody?
Once again, the Oldgringo proves to be a master of the obvious...what are we all debating about? I checked in the penal code and "stoping" isn't even a misdemeanor! (and it only took 7 pages) :cheers2:
by talltex
Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:06 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

gigag04 wrote: Valid points from the outside looking in, but in my experience, "off duty" (notice the quotes I put) is signed up for through the department. I was never free to "sell" my services or otherwise seek out secondary employment.

Also - like it or not, "off duty" LEOs direct traffic on and even close or restrict public streets for private enterprise all time time...garages, churches, sporting events, parades, marathons.

Joker and I are familiar with how these things worksand have a context within which to frame a situation instead of reading hyped up over limited coverage stories and getting all in huff calling for firings, training, and other knee-jerk reactions to actually non-existent problems.
I don't disagree with your first statement about how you had to apply to the department to do those types of "off duty" jobs...I think that's the way most departments operate...which brings it right back to what my objection is: off duty officers, using official equipment, exerting official authority over the public, and being personally compensated for doing so by private groups, for those group's own benefit. I'm not talking about police escorting a funeral procession onto a highway, or directing traffic and closing down a street for a planned civic activity such as a parade, or managing the traffic snarl following a NASCAR race or Cowboys game. We all understand the need for those special situations. Those services benefit a large population group. I'm referring to examples that you put forth...a private corporation paying to have a lane shut down on a public roadway to give their employees a special privilege not available to the general public. The same goes for the Churches...they are a also a private business (albeit one with many special privileges already). Should all churches be able to access off duty officers...or just those big enough and rich enough to pay for it? You can sugarcoat it, but it still boils down to paying money to obtain the use of official authority, to benefit someone who doesn't have that authority otherwise. In this particular case, it's a private company, that was awarded an $8,000,000.00 contract by the NHTSA to obtain breath/tissue/blood samples, and they are using some of that money, to hire the FWPD to divert traffic off Beech Street to them...something THEY don't have any authority to do on their own.
by talltex
Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:50 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

gigag04 wrote:Well...all they did as far as I can tell was close down a road and direct people into a parking lot.


The office building next to ours hires "off duty" LEOs to close down a lane and allow their parking garage to empty every evening. Many churches hire "off duty" LEOs to direct traffic in and out of their parking lots...are these detentions?

First, I don't think that everyone involved should be fired...immediately or otherwise...but I do think that the FWPD, and every other LE agency needs to take a long look at their policies regarding what an "off-duty" officer may or may not do. I am truly perplexed that you and Joker don't see anything wrong with the idea of off-duty officers using official vehicles, in an official manner, impeding traffic on a public roadway, inconveniencing and delaying people without cause, to further a private contractor's agenda in exchange for compensation. As for your other examples: Why should an off duty officer have the authority to close down a lane on a public road for the convenience of a private company's employees to exit a parking garage in exchange for money? That's granting a special privilege to one group over the rest of the public using that road for a "price". If a church wants to hire off-duty officers to direct traffic in and out of THEIR parking lots, that's fine... but the officer's authority should end where the public road begins. Otherwise, what you have is off duty officers selling their official authority to private groups that don't otherwise have such authority...and I just can't see how that is a good thing.
by talltex
Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:55 am
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

E.Marquez wrote:
talltex wrote: :iagree: Exactly! I read the methodology for how the random drivers were "selected" to participate: once the roadblock was in place, the third vehicle to approach was diverted into the survey area...after that, each time one of the "contractors" finished with a driver they indicated it to the officers and the next vehicle approaching was diverted each time. As the woman in the video stated, "it sure didn't seem voluntary"...and when she wanted to continue down Beech street without being diverted, she was still directed into the parking lot and a parking space, where she was "interviewed" anyway. That would be a different definition of "voluntary" than I'm aware of.
Agreed, hence the earlier comment made of "abet poorly conducted"

Use of LEOs to "direct" makes it not voluntary.

If the contractors had walked up to folks as they drove in to the local mall parking lot..and asked if they wanted to participate for compilation.. THAT would be voluntary... I would have still said no, as would many others.. but it would have been an informed choice of free will... not an implied requirement to obey an officers directions.

The fault lays at the operation directors feet for this one.... the local LEOs did them self no favors in participating.. but what we do not know is how the "survey" was presented to them. // For all we know, contractors motivated my money (no surveys taken, no money paid) may have implied or outright stated to the officers the method was approved by the department, or home land Security, or the POTUS.. or......... The officer being approached may not have realized they were being duped.. Or maybe bey they did and did not care.. All I know it the process was wrong, and LEOS helped.. I don't know how they came to be involved or what was told to them to get there involvement.
:iagree: In the link to the NHTSA site in Mojo's post on page 3, the proposal from the Contractor to the NHSTA for the project, presents exactly how they plan to conduct it, including using off-duty police officers to divert participants to them in an adjacent parking lot to be used for the survey...even has diagrams showing diversion points, parking spaces, etc...and includes the info about the "passive alcohol detection devices" to be used on approach to the participant. In this case, according to the FWPD statement, they apparently just contacted the Traffic Division and requested off-duty officers to assist and divert traffic as well as "protecting the cash on hand". Evidently, someone there just figured it was another way for the off-duty guys to make some extra money, and never considered the effect on the "citizens".
by talltex
Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:40 am
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

Cedar Park Dad wrote:
C-dub wrote:They make it sound so sweet and innocent. It may be, but the folks stopped at the recent one in FW said it sure didn't seem voluntary. Maybe that part wasn't explained very well or at all. Also, I don't remember hearing about any of the others This one in FW hit the national news.
If the LEO's have lights flashing on me, there's absolutely nothing voluntary about it.
:iagree: Exactly! I read the methodology for how the random drivers were "selected" to participate: once the roadblock was in place, the third vehicle to approach was diverted into the survey area...after that, each time one of the "contractors" finished with a driver they indicated it to the officers and the next vehicle approaching was diverted each time. As the woman in the video stated, "it sure didn't seem voluntary"...and when she wanted to continue down Beech street without being diverted, she was still directed into the parking lot and a parking space, where she was "interviewed" anyway. That would be a different definition of "voluntary" than I'm aware of.
by talltex
Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:27 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

sjfcontrol wrote:
gigag04 wrote:Any other articles on this?


I'm late to the party as all the "govt is out to get me" threads kind of run together so I passed over this one. The original link isn't working, and I haven't seen much else on the story.
Original link works for me...
just checked both links on page one of thread and they are working fine for me
by talltex
Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:54 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blood
Replies: 221
Views: 6578

Re: North Texas motorists stoped by Feds to take DNA and blo

mojo84 wrote:Further to gthaustex question, what would the "off duty" cops have done if they detected someone that was intoxicated?

Things like this just further the distrust between the police/government and us mere citizens.
good question...and IF they were actually "off-duty", then how is the use of FWPD patrol units parked in the road with light bars flashing explained?

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