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ScottDLS wrote: In the auction scenario this takes place all the time. Seller A advertises the gun on Gunbroker for sale. A bidder B wins the bid. B pays A, then provides instructions to get it to a FFL of B's choice. A gets paid by B. A transfers the gun to his dealer "Gunbroker FFL'" with instructions on sending it to B's FFL. There is no requirement to even provide B's name.

All FFLs provide the name of the buyer for the receiving FFL. When that doesn't happen it's a mistake.

FFLs that want keep their licenses only transfer guns to the listed buyer.

If you have doubts about that, ask your IOI.

The whole thing <is less than optimal> to keep it forum friendly.

if you made the decision to sell the firearm before the purchase and you've recorded that intent somewhere...well that's not good. But you can sell your firearms anytime after you purchase it, be it 30 seconds, a day, or whenever. There's no time limit, just a notation about you can't be in the business of selling firearms without a license. What constitutes "in the business" is up to the ATF.

Straw purchase used to be cut and dry. The classic guy and gal walk in. He fingers the gun of his choice, perhaps engages salesperson about the firearm, comes time to do the deed and it's, "oh, my girlfriend/wife/baby momma will do the paperwork." Yeah, goodbye.

Hours or days later, another person walks in to buy same gun and original moron is out in the parking lot waiting for it or directing them on the phone. Goodbye.

In my shop we don't see that thankfully.

Instead, we might get a person, female, who comes in to get a firearm usually thru transfer who has zero interest in the firearm itself. Doesn't want to inspect it or really even touch it. Pass background check and off they go. They haven't said or done anything wrong and you're left wondering, was that a straw purchase?

If you pass the background check, it should be fine. In that respect I agree with the dissent opinion.

There are so many rules and regulations, and more each hour, that just about everybody is a potential criminal if some authority somewhere wants to make an example of you.

ScottDLS wrote:

Misfit Child wrote:The courts didn't think it was irrelevant. caveat emptor

You completely misinterpreted the decision. The payment in advance by the uncle was used as evidence that Abramski was not acquiring the gun for his own use. That is lying on the 4473 and the definition of a straw purchase. The fact that he got the LEO discount was completely irrelevant to the decision, and played no part in the illegality of the transaction.

Agreed.

Thank goodness I went shooting today and had a great time busting some clays.

PriestTheRunner wrote:

Scott B. wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:

Scott B. wrote:The buyer does the transfer. Period. You can gift a firearm purchased with your own money. You cannot do a straw purchase, that is using somebody else's money to buy a gun, do the 4473 in your name, then hand the gun over to the party who provided the money.

In the state of Texas, we have no firearms registry, so you can gift a firearm with a smile - as long as you know that person is not prohibited from owning/possessing a firearm and they reside in the same state as you.

Optionally, you can do a 4473 for the firearm and then have the FFL reacquire the firearm from you and do a new 4473 to who you want to gift/sell the firearm. That's what ATF would like to see done nationally, and it's required in Washington and Oregon, it's only voluntary elsewhere.

So if you buy the firearm for someone whom you know is prohibited (but with your own money), the crime is only committed when you transfer the gun to the prohibited person? I don't think that's the way the ATF views straw purchases. In fact I think there's an argument that Federal jurisdiction does not apply AFTER the transfer from the FFL. By buying a gun from an FFL on behalf of another person you are lying on the 4473. If you really intend to give the firearm as a gift (without compensation) to someone then you ARE the actual transferee. You are receiving it for YOUR use, as a gift. Also the GCA 1968 and regulations reference "transferee" not "buyer". This is how Gunbroker and/or escrow services are not considered dealers.

I'm not saying that at all. In the OP's case, he could do the transfer since he paid for the firearm. If he's then going to sell the firearm to his buddy, he can either do that with a handshake OR have the FFL do another 4473 from him to his buddy.

His buddy can't come in and do the transfer because his name isn't on the invoice/contact info from the sending FFL. That's the straw purchase trap.

Providing a firearm to a prohibited person is a separate issue from the transfer. I mention it only because you can gift a firearm, within the same state*, to anybody as long as you don't run afoul of that particular trap.

* Commie states excluded.

This kind of advice will get the OP arrested.

Scott, you need to read the details of the Abramski case. What you are recommending is EXACTLY what did. Bought the gun. Passed the BG check. Sold the gun through a FFL and still got burned.

After passing the background checks, and receiving the gun, (straw purchaser) Abramski contacted a federally licensed firearms dealer (FFL) in Pennsylvania, which conducted its own background check on (the uncle) Alvarez and then proceeded to transfer the gun to (the uncle) Alvarez through the FFL. Completing the transaction, Abramski deposited the check and received a receipt from Alvarez. Later, Abramski was suspected of committing a bank robbery...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States

The lynch pin in Abramski is that Alvarez sent Abramski a check, for $400, first.

In the OP's case. He is the actual buyer of the firearm. Spent his own money and, if he goes through with it, does the transfer.

ScottDLS wrote:

Scott B. wrote:The buyer does the transfer. Period. You can gift a firearm purchased with your own money. You cannot do a straw purchase, that is using somebody else's money to buy a gun, do the 4473 in your name, then hand the gun over to the party who provided the money.

In the state of Texas, we have no firearms registry, so you can gift a firearm with a smile - as long as you know that person is not prohibited from owning/possessing a firearm and they reside in the same state as you.

Optionally, you can do a 4473 for the firearm and then have the FFL reacquire the firearm from you and do a new 4473 to who you want to gift/sell the firearm. That's what ATF would like to see done nationally, and it's required in Washington and Oregon, it's only voluntary elsewhere.

So if you buy the firearm for someone whom you know is prohibited (but with your own money), the crime is only committed when you transfer the gun to the prohibited person? I don't think that's the way the ATF views straw purchases. In fact I think there's an argument that Federal jurisdiction does not apply AFTER the transfer from the FFL. By buying a gun from an FFL on behalf of another person you are lying on the 4473. If you really intend to give the firearm as a gift (without compensation) to someone then you ARE the actual transferee. You are receiving it for YOUR use, as a gift. Also the GCA 1968 and regulations reference "transferee" not "buyer". This is how Gunbroker and/or escrow services are not considered dealers.

I'm not saying that at all. In the OP's case, he could do the transfer since he paid for the firearm. If he's then going to sell the firearm to his buddy, he can either do that with a handshake OR have the FFL do another 4473 from him to his buddy.

His buddy can't come in and do the transfer because his name isn't on the invoice/contact info from the sending FFL. That's the straw purchase trap.

Providing a firearm to a prohibited person is a separate issue from the transfer. I mention it only because you can gift a firearm, within the same state*, to anybody as long as you don't run afoul of that particular trap.

* Commie states excluded.

ScottDLS wrote:

Beiruty wrote:First, do not pay for it under your name.
Second, Contact the seller and provide the name of the real buyer. Explain what happened.
Seller will send the pistol to FFL of the real buyer
Let your friend do the paper work and pick the pistol from his FFL.

In Short do not do the transaction yourself.
You are the bidder agent of the real buyer no more no less.

That is the correct way to handle it. The ATF can consider you buying a gun for someone else, even though they are qualified, as a "straw purchase". Realistically, they probably won't, but you should not risk it. When you fill out the 4473 you are signing that you are buying the gun for yourself. ATF considers that lying on the form.

You're correct. I read the original post and blew past the one where he was going to be reimbursed.

Beiruty wrote:First, do not pay for it under your name.
Second, Contact the seller and provide the name of the real buyer. Explain what happened.
Seller will send the pistol to FFL of the real buyer
Let your friend do the paper work and pick the pistol from his FFL.

In Short do not do the transaction yourself.
You are the bidder agent of the real buyer no more no less.

You're correct. I should have read that a little closer. The seller will probably cancel the sale altogether.

Alternately, do the transfer. Sell the gun to his buddy, do a new transfer just to keep the paperwork straight.

The buyer does the transfer. Period. You can gift a firearm purchased with your own money. You cannot do a straw purchase, that is using somebody else's money to buy a gun, do the 4473 in your name, then hand the gun over to the party who provided the money.

In the state of Texas, we have no firearms registry, so you can gift a firearm with a smile - as long as you know that person is not prohibited from owning/possessing a firearm and they reside in the same state as you.

Optionally, you can do a 4473 for the firearm and then have the FFL reacquire the firearm from you and do a new 4473 to who you want to gift/sell the firearm. That's what ATF would like to see done nationally, and it's required in Washington and Oregon, it's only voluntary elsewhere.

ScottDLS wrote:

SigM4 wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:
That is the correct way to handle it. The ATF can consider you buying a gun for someone else, even though they are qualified, as a "straw purchase". Realistically, they probably won't, but you should not risk it. When you fill out the 4473 you are signing that you are buying the gun for yourself. ATF considers that lying on the form.

Another question on my part (to go along with my post above). Does the ATF consider the payment for the gun and the transfer paperwork all as part and parcel of a single transaction? Or they viewed as separate events?

Reason I ask is because question 11a of the 4473 states "Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Waring: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person...

This is the important part to me ...if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person...

The reason I quote this is because in this situation, if the friend filled out the paperwork, he would check "Yes" in my mind, because he is the actual transferee regardless who paid for it. And at that point no straw sale would (or could) have existed.

Again, using logic it would seem to me that no matter who pays for the gun, so long as the person actually taking possession of it fills out the form, there's no foul. But, I'm sure it's not that simple.

You are correct in the case that the actual recipient fills out the 4473. In the case of an online auction described, the seller really doesn't care who the end buyer is, only his FFL. If you buy a gun at auction and the seller sends it to the FFL, then why would they care who fills out the 4473. The FFL just transfers it to the actual buyer, even if it has a not inside that says for John Doe, instead of Sam Smith. The FFL is legal recipient of the first transfer (from seller) and the actual buyer goes and is the (final) transferee. Nobody cares where he got the money.

Go back and look at the case. The father gave the son the money who purchased at the LE discounted rate and said on his 4473 that he was the actual buyer, then sent the gun to anther FFL cross state lines and the father did another 4473. It was the son they went after, not the father.

That was a straw purchase.

Beiruty wrote:First, do not pay for it under your name.
Second, Contact the seller and provide the name of the real buyer. Explain what happened.
Seller will send the pistol to FFL of the real buyer
Let your friend do the paper work and pick the pistol from his FFL.

In Short do not do the transaction yourself.
You are the bidder agent of the real buyer no more no less.

Do not do this.

You paid for it, you do the transfer. After that, you may gift it to anybody you like in the state of Texas as long as you know they are legally able to own a firearm.

I have an 07/02 FFL/SOT and I do transfers 6 days a week.